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C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
So since every fucktard that thinks he can code has been whining about renguard, i decided it might be fun to see if you people could actually come up with something better. The challenge is really simple, your anti-cheat only has to detect simple objects.ddb changes, and it has to obviously be bypass proof to at least a reasonable extent. -Ghost- P.S. i at least expect something from gamemodding!
If they fail they obviously get embarassed and you can link to this thread every time they criticise RenGuard. If they pass I would hope you'd consider putting their talents to good use and taking them onboard. tbh, I've never had an issue with RG not being 100%, my issue was with people who claimed/believed it was.
What are you trying to accomplish here? I doubt that the people who can code here are going to waste their time on this.
To be fair, there is no such thing as an anti-cheat that cannot be by-passed that runs on the client. For someone that can hack there own kernal and start running stuff at ring 0 level there really isn't anything you can do to stop them. Now come on, this will serve no purpose.. RG was made over the course of a long period of time and anything that these guys make will be torn to pieces in a day. They do not have the funds to pack it with anything other then free software and even if they did, would they really spend it on a challenge? Please at least stop having a go at Gamemodding, he really is only trying to create stuff for the community. I don;t think he deserves such a hard time for his efforts.
Thats why i kept it relatively simple. And with not bypassable to a reasonable extend, i am talking about bypassing without use of ASM hacks or othe more complicated stuff. And yes if someone comes up with something good, i don't see why the BHS staff can't request his help. -Ghost-
IMO logically, just hard code the values of objects.ddb into the app that scans the one in the current data folder or always.dat. That's not bypassable unless you go to extreme lengths to recode the application. I think all anti-cheat stuff should be serverside, even though it is difficult, BIATCH does this already, and does it well. And since it's serverside it's unbypassable since the cheaters don't have access to the files. However, BIATCH is only limited to certain cheats and bypasses due to the way the FDS receives its data from the players. Blame EA for that since they closed down WW before they could finish it. If you want to do something really good, recode the FDS to receive all of the stuff from the players, then anti-cheat things to read all of that stuff.
Really? Just make a fake client, and make it say everything is kosjer. -Ghost-
Reborn wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 06:29 To be fair, there is no such thing as an anti-cheat that cannot be by-passed that runs on the client. For someone that can hack there own kernal and start running stuff at ring 0 level there really isn't anything you can do to stop them. Now come on, this will serve no purpose.. RG was made over the course of a long period of time and anything that these guys make will be torn to pieces in a day. They do not have the funds to pack it with anything other then free software and even if they did, would they really spend it on a challenge? Please at least stop having a go at Gamemodding, he really is only trying to create stuff for the community. I don;t think he deserves such a hard time for his efforts. I agree, well said.
Oh btw, i don't have any problem with gamemodding, the reason i mentioned him in the post, is because he was the guy who made no secret of it that he considers all renguard coders morons or something. Seriously, critics ain't bad, but do try to realize how hard something is, and FFS don't keep going on about it. -Ghost-
Just objects.ddb? Nothing else? Not by passable, to the extent of ASM hacks? What about WriteProcessMemory and ReadProcessMemory? If so, i take it up. Although, it wont prove anything. Does it have to be a first attempt? Can i patch it if you find a bypass? Do i have a time limit? Do i have a time limit finding a patch? EDIT: Can i ask why i am banned from the Win32 FDS forum? Has nothing to do with RG :S
Reborn wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 06:29 Please at least stop having a go at Gamemodding, he really is only trying to create stuff for the community. I don;t think he deserves such a hard time for his efforts. OMFG its a miracle, me, agreeing with Reboob. Get off Games back and give him a rest.
One more question, does it have to connect to a server, so server side, They know you're not cheating?
Obviously you have to tell the FDS somehow that your using the program. -Ghost-
Time limit: ansich no, but you know do stay reasonable. Patching, sure. I consider read and write ASM hacks. -Ghost-
Let the games begin! I hope there are other people contending other than me EDIT: I'll be obfuscating my code so try ASM hacks just for fun, but since my knowledge on ASM and ASM hacks is limited i may not be able to patch it. No ASM hacks on the renegade client itself, though. It will only check objects.ddb.
I would have a go, but I don't know what a program is. Can it be done in PHP?
I wouldn't count on it.
Jonty wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 10:45 I would have a go, but I don't know what a program is. Can it be done in PHP? Considering PHP is open source, no. It can't.
Well sure you can do it in PHP but don't expect it to last more then 10 secs without being bypassed. -Ghost-
I'm sure i saw a program once that turns PHP into machine code :/
Machine code and executable aren't the same thing And besides that it would be highly inefficient. Which reminds me, the player should notice as little as possible of the program during gameplay(except when he cheats). -Ghost-
The program itself will not be seen at all, you don't even have to run it. It is going to be a new bandtest.dll. The server doesn't bind IP addresses.
You can run php on the command line. I got part way towards writing a php script then thought "screw this" and did it in bash instead.
I need one more piece of info, does it need to detect RGH? I have already got it to search objects.ddb generate a CRC, check it. If its a cheat, it displays a message and exits renegade. Just working on the server code (shouldn't take more than a week i guess, unless i can't find an address that i need)
Well the current *cheat name removed*is quite complicated, so its not mandatory, but if you want sure. -Ghost-
gamemodding wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 23:47 The program itself will not be seen at all, you don't even have to run it. It is going to be a new bandtest.dll. The server doesn't bind IP addresses. Does that mean that if your anti cheat has an error, the complete client will crash?
FYI Renguard functions almost exactly the same way that PunkBuster does. PB does have the advantage of being compiled into the games it protects. RG does a great job for being an external application. Most of the problems that people have with RG have nothing to do with its anti-cheat functionality, but rather little things that bite developers on the ass later, like differences between operating system versions, random device drivers moving things around in memory, etc. I believe that full advantage should be taken of server-side anti-cheat solutions like BIATCH. Sadly there are some things that can only be checked client-side, which is why programs like RenGuard, PunkBuster, ValveAntiCheat, etc exist. Is there room for improvement with RG? Definitely there is, and we are working on it, not only improving the anti-cheat functionality, but working out the bugs in the UI and backend network. It's a huge task really, and we (BHS and BI) can only work on it in our free time, because as much as we all love Renegade, we still have to work real jobs to pay our bills - which include the bills that pay for the renguard network servers, and even this very server that this forum is on. I guess in a roundabout way, I'm trying to say that I wish people would realize just how much work goes into, and has gone into RenGuard, and it stings a bit when you put your extra time into this thing, for the good of the game, and the very people you are trying to help come and bite your head off. I don't think anyone should seriously try to build a better RG, but this challenge should at least make you think, and hopefully realize all of the problems that RG tries to address. Before you think you can do better, really think about it. Can you code in C? Do you have intimate knowledge of the Renegade game engine and functions? Can you build windows applications? Are you familiar with encryption protocols and methods? Can you build a stable application with 0 bugs? Are you sure? That works on Windows98, 2000, 2003, Vista? 64Bit? Do you have dedicated servers to run the backend network on? What backend network - where are you going to store the data for bans, data segment/file hashes, etc? Is it fault tolerant? Do you have well thought out, documented protocol specs? The list can go on and on. Its easy to say "LOL RG sucks I could write something better in VB". But seriously try to launch a bug free windows app that has to run flawlessly on thousands of computers running a myriad of operating systems and inconceivable setups with a bulletproof backend network and database, and then see how you look at it. It is no simple task.... I hope thinking about all of this makes some people understand that A) A lot of work went into/goes into RG B) It's not a simple system that anyone could code up in a day and never have a problem. Believe me I would LOVE to see products that are coded right the first time, and then only have to work on addding new features, but it just doesn't happen in the software world. Just making a calendar application would be a pain, now imagine that it is way more complex than that, and on top of having to make it work for everyone, you have some people who are constantly trying to hack it and break it...sometimes it almost seems not worth it, but we keep at it because we love this damn game and just want everyone to have fun playing it fairly. Ah well, nobody is going to read this fucking post anyway. "too much text"...FFS please take your A.D.D pills
I have had a project like this in the back of my mind for a long time. I have already planned how it's going to work. The protocol will be as secure as i can get it (which will be very secure). I know a little C, it's mainly C++ though . I don't know VB at all, although i can read a little of it.
I can't tell you how amused I am that you honestly believe you can come up with something "in the back of your mind" that it took a team of about a half-dozen of the greatest minds in Renegade to create over the course of about 9 months? If you truly believe that, then you are sad, sad, sad... but hey, go for it. If it's truly better, then maybe one day your name will be in lights. But I predict you will follow in the paths of many "tried and failed" before you...
In that case, why waste your time on this little game and instead go work for Microsoft? Apparently you can create bug-free, conflict-free, feature-full, exploit-free software perfectly the first try, so I'm sure they could use someone like you to show all the hundreds of coders how they SHOULD be doing things. After all, how hard could it be? You sound like someone who has not yet graduated from the school of hard knocks. Your words make professional programmers laugh their butts off at your naivety. What are you, like 13? You obviously have no real-world exposure in the programming world.
gamemodding wrote on Thu, 07 June 2007 12:49 w/e, i find your ignorance amusing too. at no point did i say i was better than anyone
I feel increasingly certain that 90% of Americans are not worth the cost of the exorbitant amount of food they eat.
Crimson wrote on Thu, 07 June 2007 12:47 a half-dozen of the greatest minds in Renegade 0x90 is cleverer than you.
0x90 just chose an easier task. -Ghost-
Anyway, enough bickering in this thread. I want something productive to come out of here, instead of the idiotic ending of the last argument. OT to Crimson: I'd rather be in a tree with gamemodding and fl00ded than meeting someone like you anyday. It's likely that I'm in the tree because I'm trying to stay away from you in disgust.
I thought you were gonna stop bickering.... -Ghost-
Any progress from anyone? Its been more then a month now. -Ghost-
I've been working on other things, i had something somewhat working. I just need to finish the server.
I know how to make a good anti-cheat program. Just copy the uninstaller for the game =D
Jonty wrote on Thu, 07 June 2007 06:20 I feel increasingly certain that 90% of Americans are not worth the cost of the exorbitant amount of food they eat. Perhaps you have not noticed, but it is the people on this planet, not just America. 90% of humans are not worth what they eat. If everyone has so many problems with America, why don't they do anything about it? Perhaps it is because they are also doing the same type of stuff, and just using America as a diversion. Or maybe it is even simpler, they are just lazy. PS: this is a pointless thread, regardless of what you try to make, cheaters well always find a way around.
Jerad Gray wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 02:17 regardless of what you try to make, cheaters well always find a way around. Ah, but you see, that's not the point of the challenge.
The first part of this challenge is very simple. A simple CRC32 or MD5 hash of the objects.ddb file on disk with a check in Renegade to make sure this wasn't altared. A slightly harder part will be the communication between the server - client so that it cannot be decrypted. Cheaters are most likely to wait until you decrypt the text, therefore you want to avoid decrypting it Now the real challenge shows when you have to make the client detect modifications to the client anti-cheat program. For this you have to take a checksum of both the file on disk, but also the file in the memory to detect changes. This part of the code then needs to be hidden and hack-proof.
I may be able to start this again, since i may have a project dropped. I don't know yet. If i can, expect something soon.
Dave S. Anderson wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 02:26 Jerad Gray wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 02:17 regardless of what you try to make, cheaters well always find a way around. Ah, but you see, that's not the point of the challenge. Does this challenge have a point?
The Merovingian wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 12:50 I think all anti-cheat stuff should be serverside, even though it is difficult, BIATCH does this already, and does it well. And since it's serverside it's unbypassable since the cheaters don't have access to the files. Serverside apps are bypassable. If the "solution" is simply to deploy things on a server and think that's secure you are seriously misguided. If you create something that runs on Windows, remember there are Linux hosts too. Im assuming this app has to run on Linux and Windows if server side?
3663Nixon wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 13:04 The Merovingian wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 12:50 I think all anti-cheat stuff should be serverside, even though it is difficult, BIATCH does this already, and does it well. And since it's serverside it's unbypassable since the cheaters don't have access to the files. Serverside apps are bypassable. If the "solution" is simply to deploy things on a server and think that's secure you are seriously misguided. If you create something that runs on Windows, remember there are Linux hosts too. Im assuming this app has to run on Linux and Windows if server side? Bypass BIATCH's damage protection and i will personally hand you a medal.
3663Nixon wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 14:04 The Merovingian wrote on Wed, 06 June 2007 12:50 I think all anti-cheat stuff should be serverside, even though it is difficult, BIATCH does this already, and does it well. And since it's serverside it's unbypassable since the cheaters don't have access to the files. Serverside apps are bypassable. If the "solution" is simply to deploy things on a server and think that's secure you are seriously misguided. If you create something that runs on Windows, remember there are Linux hosts too. Im assuming this app has to run on Linux and Windows if server side? What he means is that in order to hack/bypass BIATCH, you would need to hack the whole server. And there are not many ppl capable of doing such thing fortunately
Jerad Gray wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 09:17 If everyone has so many problems with America, why don't they do anything about it? Perhaps it is because they are also doing the same type of stuff, and just using America as a diversion. Or maybe it is even simpler, they are just lazy. What, you want me to invent some weapon that vapourises all the Americans with an IQ under 120? Because that's a mighty fine idea to me. I like the bash.org comment. <xterm> The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
hello, i'm new this entire anti-cheat stuff is very interesting... a lot of reverse engineering has been done on renegade and i'm thinking- why go through all this trouble? if you're going to make something like renguard, you might as well re-make renegade and move as much stuff as you can from the client to the server so you dont have all these retarded hacks
Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right
Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:56 Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right your name is familiar.. could you be the same man as http://bailopan.net ?
It'S funny, cos one of the things keeping ren going all these years is how easy it is to mod, which means people can refresh their gaming experience by getting a good mod. But this could have killed it too, as it is so easy to mod, even the dumbest of the dumb can make their own cheats since the program to do so is on westwoods FTP...
do not want wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:04 Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:56 Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right your name is familiar.. could you be the same man as http://bailopan.net ? Nope. I run DCOM Productions .NET.
Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:21 do not want wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:04 Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:56 Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right your name is familiar.. could you be the same man as http://bailopan.net ? Nope. I run DCOM Productions .NET. haha... the second pwnage I see today in the forums. LOL
Ancient_and_forever wrote on Sat, 14 July 2007 00:04 But this could have killed it too, as it is so easy to mod, even the dumbest of the dumb can make their own cheats since the program to do so is on westwoods FTP... Those cheats are picked up by BIATCH
BuzzOfTheStar wrote on Sat, 14 July 2007 00:24 Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:21 do not want wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:04 Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:56 Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right your name is familiar.. could you be the same man as http://bailopan.net ? Nope. I run DCOM Productions .NET. haha... the second pwnage I see today in the forums. LOL How was that ownage? A question was asked, and it was answered, it isn't ownage...
Ancient_and_forever wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:37 BuzzOfTheStar wrote on Sat, 14 July 2007 00:24 Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:21 do not want wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:04 Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 17:56 Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right your name is familiar.. could you be the same man as http://bailopan.net ? Nope. I run DCOM Productions .NET. haha... the second pwnage I see today in the forums. LOL How was that ownage? A question was asked, and it was answered, it isn't ownage... +1 Agree.
Quote: haha... the second pwnage I see today in the forums. LOL Yeah, I don't see where you pulled "pwnage" from in this case.
RoShamBo wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 08:09 Bypass BIATCH's damage protection and i will personally hand you a medal. Unfortunately, that's pretty easy..
Tunaman wrote on Sat, 14 July 2007 01:51 RoShamBo wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 08:09 Bypass BIATCH's damage protection and i will personally hand you a medal. Unfortunately, that's pretty easy.. The hell it is, go on, bypass it.
Dave S. Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:57 Quote: haha... the second pwnage I see today in the forums. LOL Yeah, I don't see where you pulled "pwnage" from in this case. Ya...I guess I got pwned.
RoShamBo wrote on Sat, 14 July 2007 02:00 Tunaman wrote on Sat, 14 July 2007 01:51 RoShamBo wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 08:09 Bypass BIATCH's damage protection and i will personally hand you a medal. Unfortunately, that's pretty easy.. The hell it is, go on, bypass it. To actually bypass it, is near impossible but to use cheats that it can't detect/block is another thing, this is what I think he is pointing towards. BITACH as most people know doesn't block all DMG Hacks but I hear its coming very close to blocking all objects.dbb cheats.
Jonty wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 12:56 Jerad Gray wrote on Thu, 12 July 2007 09:17 If everyone has so many problems with America, why don't they do anything about it? Perhaps it is because they are also doing the same type of stuff, and just using America as a diversion. Or maybe it is even simpler, they are just lazy. What, you want me to invent some weapon that vapourises all the Americans with an IQ under 120? Because that's a mighty fine idea to me. I like the bash.org comment. <xterm> The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Because then they would get confused and kill everyone else on accident. Just get rid of everyone with an IQ under 120.
My team is working towards an anticheat. I don't really care about this challenge per say but I do like to know if you guys have any ideas / suggestions / hints on how to detect rg-h. Please reply only if you a decent answer or if you know how rg-h works (internals). Don't tell me to check for rg-h.exe :\ And yes I have some idea on how much effort it must have taken to get rg off the ground.
neofmat wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 16:58 Please reply only if you a decent answer... + Crimson wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 11:37 LOL - necropost up. = Typical So instead of starting yet another topic, he revived the most relevant one. You can LOL at it, or credit him for searching the forums...
Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 13 July 2007 18:56 Quote: you might as well re-make renegade ...right http://www.renegade2007.com
I find it funny that when people create new topics asking a familiar question, we insult and degrade them for not using the Search function. But when they do use it, and they find a relevant topic and post their reply in there instead, we make fun of them for necroposting and reviving. Shit irony.
u6795 wrote on Thu, 31 January 2008 18:27 I find it funny that when people create new topics asking a familiar question, we insult and degrade them for not using the Search function. But when they do use it, and they find a relevant topic and post their reply in there instead, we make fun of them for necroposting and reviving. Shit irony. So true.... ~Zack