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Religion discussion from "Meaning of Life" thread
A continuation from that thread. If you feel the need to continue the religious debate, do so here. Use the copy and paste function to quote a post from the previous thread, paste it here and continue the discussion. I don't have the time at the moment to move each post over. http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=23967&start=0&rid=5 4
Re: Religion discussion from "Meaning of Life" thread
Although it shouldn't be forced, Christians have a duty to tell others what they know. I forget where in the Bible, but I believe there was a verse that stated if someone knows God and doesn't tell unbelievers, then Judgment awaits him. If he tells an unbeliever and the unbeliever does not Invite God into their heart, Judgment is on them.
gbull wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 13:16 Although it shouldn't be forced, Christians have a duty to tell others what they know. I forget where in the Bible, but I believe there was a verse that stated if someone knows God and doesn't tell unbelievers, then Judgment awaits him. If he tells an unbeliever and the unbeliever does not Invite God into their heart, Judgment is on them. Seems like people are better off not knowing about it at all then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj1KGZSFmfs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dvNtp8Njw Thoughts, anyone?
Rocko wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 23:56 gbull wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 13:16 Although it shouldn't be forced, Christians have a duty to tell others what they know. I forget where in the Bible, but I believe there was a verse that stated if someone knows God and doesn't tell unbelievers, then Judgment awaits him. If he tells an unbeliever and the unbeliever does not Invite God into their heart, Judgment is on them. Seems like people are better off not knowing about it at all then. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj1KGZSFmfs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dvNtp8Njw Thoughts, anyone? Quote: WORM, Who is threatening you? The blood of Jesus Christ is for you. Hwo dreadful it will be for those who treat what is Holy as unholy. Jesus died for your sins and this is the way you say thanks. What do you think it will be like for all those who have rejected Him now and in the time to come. I'm sure you have a bible in your home open to Hebrews 10 and read. Then repent and ask God into your heart and into your family for healing. -one of the comments made on second video Extreme religious people are for the win *edit* Yeah the second video is in bad taste. Just saying that response is so typical.
I wrote some long responses twice at college but the stupid machine got all fucked up, therefor I cannot be bothered, the second video linked to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7QVbJnSPQE looks like there is plenty more videos there as well and that I will be going to hell! uh oh.
IronBalls wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 13:49 I have a strong eternal relationship with Jesus Christ. I fear God...this keeps me for commiting more sins and keeping the relationship positive. Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship and the more you fear God, the closer you will stay with Him. If you fear God, you do not have a strong eternal relationship with him.. You have a limited Temporal relationship that ends when he either strikes you down, or you die of natural causes and realize that you didn’t understand at all what he asked of you. IronBalls wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 13:49 So in other words, I want to ease your suspicion that I, IronBalls, maybe a fake Christian who is just rambling Bible verses. No, I am not a fake...and I believe God is scrutinizing me right now as I write this post. So, He knows if I am a liar or not...if I am a cheat or not. He knows EVERYTHING about me. I know that I will pay the severe price if I lied. So, please understand. God is scrutinizing you, he knows if you are or aren’t a liar, he knows if you are or aren’t a cheat, and he also knows if you truly believe in him or are simply afraid of what “might” happen to you if you don’t. “God Fearing Christians” are about the fakest type there are.. They don’t understand what God has asked them to do, and they don’t truly understand the meaning of the sacrifice he made for them. If your own father beat the shit out of you ever day and threatened to make you spend the rest of your life in a dungeon if you didn’t listen to him.. You wouldn’t have a loving, compassionate relationship with him either.. You would just do what he says for fear of the consequences. That isn’t at all what God has asked of you. IronBalls wrote on Thu, 26 April 2007 13:49 Also, the only reason that I repetedly keep posting in these hot topics (and in many other forums in the web) is to defend my faith and because I am not afraid. Also, it would be a crime, for me as a Christian, if I held my peace. It is a crime for you as a Christian to attempt to bring others to God through fear.. Besides, you would be far more successful if you would just explain the loving relationship one can have with God, and how he can bring joy and meaning to their lives. I don’t fear God at all.. he knows what is in my heart.. I don’t have to make superficial attempts at pleasing him.. he isn’t striking notches in the bedpost when I tell someone about him.
msgtpain wrote on Sat, 28 April 2007 02:37 My interpretation & beliefs are right and yours are wrong I don't believe in God but I can see that you have completely missed any point Ironballs was trying to make, nothing you said has any relevance to anything he posted.
MexPirate wrote on Sat, 28 April 2007 08:49 msgtpain wrote on Sat, 28 April 2007 02:37 My interpretation & beliefs are right and yours are wrong I don't believe in God but I can see that you have completely missed any point Ironballs was trying to make, nothing you said has any relevance to anything he posted. You can believe in God, or not believe in God; I could care less... but if your a Christian simply because your scared to death of what's going to happen when you die, then you've missed the point, not me. You'll never see me telling you that you should believe in God, or that you're going to hell if you don't... But if you want to believe in God, you might as well do it for the right reason... Christianity is about a man suffering for your sins, so that you might live eternal bliss.. He didnt' do it to scare the shit out of you and threaten into doing what he wants. If the only reason you don't "sin" is because you're afraid of what might happen.. then you might as well sin.. God knows the intentions of your heart.
I've never met a christian in my life that's scared of death, mainly because they know where they are going when they die.
This is a bit offtopic but... If Jesus died to remove all our "sins" then should'nt everyone go to heaven weather or not they belive it? How did the fact that he get executed do this? These are genuine questions, not sarcastic comments.
Christ payed for the sins of man through the atonement in the garden, and through death on the cross. it wasn't simply an "execution" that accomplished this. to receive the benefits of this, you must repent of your sins as well as forgive those who have sinned against you. in theory, this is how you transfer those sins to him to bare. if you recognize the need to repent, it can be safely assumed that you believe in him. according to Christianity, if you do not repent of your sins, Christ does not bare those burdens for you.
I have felt remorseful about a lot of things i have done. I still cannot belive in God, it's not that i choose not to. It's because i simply can't.
Back in the 1800s in America, the founder of the mormons believed that Jesus travelled there after his crucifixtion, and wrote some tablets on the peaks of a mountain...
gamemodding wrote on Sat, 28 April 2007 17:29 I have felt remorseful about a lot of things i have done. I still cannot belive in God, it's not that i choose not to. It's because i simply can't. whether or not you believe in God, you still have a conscience...
I only just understood what you ment by "repent". So yeah.
Time got cut short reading this, but I got to page 6 and the answer may come later for you gamemodding: http://www.rbc.org/uploadedFiles/Bible_Study/Discovery_Series/PDFs/the_forgivene ss_of_god.pdf
God probably does not exist. There has never been a shred of evidence to lend credence to his existence, and I suspect there never will be. However, if some evidence should surface, I should change my opinion. Until then, I remain an atheist and deny the existence of God or the Holy Spirit. It is my opinion that religion, both moderate forms of it but more notably its extremist incarnations (radical Islam) are among the greatest sources of evil among man, whether it be money-obsessed, lying televangelists or Muslim jihadists.
Religion is faith based, so facts are not part of them. Reigious people may express it as fact but a lot of us do it anyway: "NVidia is better than ATI" - just an opinion expressed as fact. Those people who fight or cause trouble because of a faith are trying to force their opinions on you, they would do it with something else if they were not part of a religion. They're just jerks that should be shot, another opinion expressed as fact.
How come everyone looks at the evil in Religion and not the Churches that do charitable work, turn people's lives around from an addiction, or the overall increase in morality it provides? It's not really fair. The small number of extremists automatically make everyone think religion is a bad thing.
I think I'll have to agree with Jecht on that one.
Religion has been the reason for most wars and the hate in the world all though time. What little good that comes out from it, is nothing compared to the hate and death from the evil side. Case closed.
IronWarrior wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 15:04 Religion has been the reason for most wars and the hate in the world all though time. What little good that comes out from it, is nothing compared to the hate and death from the evil side. Case closed. Guns kill people, knives kill people, I therefore declare all guns and knives to be evil in nature. Doesn't work the same does it? I'm not defending some of the things done in the name of religion, and I'm not saying it's perfect but there's a difference between religion and faith. Anything can be abused, religion is no different, and it's true that humans are flawed creations, so no religion is perfect but I don't agree that you purely blame religion for wars, just like you can't blame knives for deaths. My anaolgy isn't 100% concrete, I know that, just trying to get you to look at things from a different angle
light wrote on Wed, 20 June 2007 22:35 IronWarrior wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 15:04 Religion has been the reason for most wars and the hate in the world all though time. What little good that comes out from it, is nothing compared to the hate and death from the evil side. Case closed. Guns kill people, knives kill people, I therefore declare all guns and knives to be evil in nature. Doesn't work the same does it? I'm not defending some of the things done in the name of religion, and I'm not saying it's perfect but there's a difference between religion and faith. Anything can be abused, religion is no different, and it's true that humans are flawed creations, so no religion is perfect but I don't agree that you purely blame religion for wars, just like you can't blame knives for deaths. My anaolgy isn't 100% concrete, I know that, just trying to get you to look at things from a different angle I do see your point, but as you said, the anaology is not really concrete. It seems in this world, we always try to blame our problems on everything else other then the problem itself, which doesnt get us anywhere. There is many good things that come out of religion, yes, have to agree there, but trying to kid yourself that religion doesnt cause more harm then it does good, is just silly, the idea behide religion for the good, is nice and all and I welcome it. But, in the end, its the root of most of the worlds problems, you only need to look at iraq, middle easy for the last, what?, 2000 years. /me wonders if that area of the world has ever known peace? As the gun only has one mission ni its life and thats to kill, wouldnt you call that evil incarnate? Today, the gun has many users, for hunting, sport, fun, but the main reason we inverted the gun was to kill people, so I would call a gun, evil. A knife, well thats yes and no, we use knifes in our every day life for eating, cutting up meat and other peaceful jobs.
People simply use religion as a means of doing evil, it's not the root. it is an effective tool when put in the wrong hands. And C4miner, proof, or lack thereof, of something does not dictate its existence. "Proof" itself can even be misinterpreted, or missed completely. I'm not saying this statement is true, but if I were to say "The proof that God exists is _____" (as many people have done before), you would call me crazy.
Go watch monty python people. -Ghost-
Quote: People simply use religion as a means of doing evil, it's not the root. it is an effective tool when put in the wrong hands. Either that, or they beleive so strongly in something, that they think it is neccecary to spread that at all cost. I really don't think there are a lot of wars about religion itself, and not only used as a tool. But even if it was only used as a tool, doesn't that make it a scary thing anyway? A gun made for hunting, but perfectly capable of killing people with?
Not a very good analogy. Guns are tools, but their basic purpose is killing something. Religion not so much, as hard as that might be for some to believe.
StealthEye wrote on Thu, 21 June 2007 11:24 Quote: People simply use religion as a means of doing evil, it's not the root. it is an effective tool when put in the wrong hands. Either that, or they beleive so strongly in something, that they think it is neccecary to spread that at all cost. I really don't think there are a lot of wars about religion itself, and not only used as a tool. But even if it was only used as a tool, doesn't that make it a scary thing anyway? A gun made for hunting, but perfectly capable of killing people with? The only thing is (and yes, I'm quoting Dogma of all movies) when people let an idea become so ingrained that they refuse to acknowledge the possibility of anything else, they will defend themselves from being "wrong" to any and all extents. This is not only restricted to Religion. Politics, Science, friendship, etc. are all just as likely to resort to underhanded means to prevent themselves from being wrong and to not accept ideas that conflict with their own beliefs. As for using tools for evil, ANY tool can be done like that. From feathers (used in conjunction with tar for the purpose of humiliation) to pens (this coined the phrase "the pen is mightier than the sword") to even lint (put enough together next to a heat source). All are tools that can be used to do "evil". However, it is not the purpose they were created for. Religion, for better or worse, is a human creation. It is used to "reveal" the existence of a higher being (Yes, I'm being very vague and generalized on purpose). That's all. Some people use it in a good way, some in a bad way. However, that does not make it an inherently "evil" thing.
I think, religion is not only used as "cover" for doing bad things (understantement ). I think it is also causing people to do bad things. Not everyone, definitely not, but I think some people, only a small group, are doing bad things because of religion. Yes, everything could, ofcourse, if you are so much liking to eat bananas that you think you can kill people to get more bananas, however I think there are many more people having religious reasons than the fact that they like bananas. Religion isn't the root of all evil, but I do think that it causes more evil to happen than bananas do. Religion I think, it causing wars and problems on its own, it is not only used as a fake reason to get support for it. Which is what the thing I quoted said.
Religion doesn't cause wars, people do. IronWarrior: You say people place blame where it's not supposed to go yet you blame religion for evil and not the people itself committing said evil? That's a backassward way of thinking.
I agree. People just use religion as a reason. If religion didn't exist, people would find other reasons to. And I believe that if we lived in a world where there were no moral restrictions, people would be doing all kinds of ungodly things. I refrain from doing wrong acts not because I'm afraid of the law, but because I have moral restrictions.
Quote: Religion doesn't cause wars, people do. But people do, because of religion... Sometimes.
Am starting to think people have forgotten history. Jecht, people need a reason to go to war, they dont go to war because they are "people", they go to war because of a reason and an idea that they held high, like forcing an other mans god on an other like muslims and christians used to do all so very long ago. I can look back on my English and European history and find many wars over this. No point in really debating this any further to be honest, we all believe our points to be set in stone and none of us will agree.
People just need a reason to go to war. It could be anything, but many use religion as a scapegoat. If religion wasn't there, it would be something else.
Jecht wrote on Fri, 22 June 2007 21:00 People just need a reason to go to war. It could be anything, but many use religion as a scapegoat. If religion wasn't there, it would be something else. The Catholic church went on crusades to stamp out heresy. Not exactly scapegoating anything here but.. yeah you see what I mean. (I know you could argue the will of the Pope at that time may not have been the fault of religion. But it's something to think about)
Hitler invaded countries to gain more land for Germany and bring about the dominance of his master race. Something to think about.
Again, Hitler was an extremist who wanted power. Was it the fault of the Jewish folk that he wanted them stamped out forever? No. Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not Catholic and I know little about the crusades. Other than that Jerusalem was taken over and re-taken over several times throughout the bout. I can say that a war caused by some mortal man does not make God less real though. It's the views of the extremists that ruin what the true vision of many churches is. My church does food drives, helps addicts become un-addicted, educates people about our savior, and other acts of charity and compassion. It would hardly ever be accused of starting a war against heretics. That's misguided, you don't kill non-believers, you inform the ones that come to you and hope they get the picture. If they don't, then at least you tried. Just like now, you may not get the picture, but at least I tried
Religion provides a few people with absolute power over alot of other people. The crusades were possible, because the main part of the european civilization at that point obeyed the pope. Same thing with the current muslim jihad. -Ghost-
Just in case you all thought I was jumping on an anti-religion bandwagon. I was actually just trying to bring up a bit deeper discussion about how a lot of the time religion is mis represented by people in power.
Satanism ftw. It's the only religion that makes sence to me.
meaning of life is to prepare for the next life by making moral decisions, if you fail to reach this morallity then you are reincarnated until you do. Eventually you join the army of god against the devil
NuNeGa wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 18:48 meaning of life is to prepare for the next life by making moral decisions, if you fail to reach this morallity then you are reincarnated until you do. Eventually you join the army of god against the devil That sounds sorta like Hinduism to me, reincarnated into a cow or something, but so tell me this, I'm not saying your wrong but, if I dont have memory or anyone else doesn't have memory of a past life...then how do we know we have had pass lives if we don't even know or remember them?
C4miner wrote on Wed, 20 June 2007 18:53 God probably does not exist. There has never been a shred of evidence to lend credence to his existence, and I suspect there never will be. However, if some evidence should surface, I should change my opinion. Until then, I remain an atheist and deny the existence of God or the Holy Spirit. It is my opinion that religion, both moderate forms of it but more notably its extremist incarnations (radical Islam) are among the greatest sources of evil among man, whether it be money-obsessed, lying televangelists or Muslim jihadists. That's what faith is. You may not have tangible evidence that there is a god, but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. God doesn't want you to know how he got there. I'm sure he'll explain it when you get up to heaven. Maybe it's just a test. On another note: I think that just because somebody grows up in a buddhist/hindu/whatever religious family doesn't mean they're not going to go to heaven. If they believe in strongly for that god because they grew up to worship him, I think God will let them into heaven because he sees their faith. Along with believing in another god they also must lead a good life. What do y'all think?
Revelation 20:11 - 20:15 The Dead are Judged 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
AoBfrost wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 22:53 NuNeGa wrote on Mon, 25 June 2007 18:48 meaning of life is to prepare for the next life by making moral decisions, if you fail to reach this morallity then you are reincarnated until you do. Eventually you join the army of god against the devil That sounds sorta like Hinduism to me, reincarnated into a cow or something, but so tell me this, I'm not saying your wrong but, if I dont have memory or anyone else doesn't have memory of a past life...then how do we know we have had pass lives if we don't even know or remember them? well say you lived a good life but still werent up to scratch, would u really waste all ur time trying again. People cant be reincarnated as cows, only people. As for hinduism, this is just something i thought up when i was bored a while back.
...I dont think something you made up counts as a religion or could make much sense, in the past there have been many of these religious and meaning of life threads but they all lead down to Christianity vs science/evolution, I still stand by my previous comments that the only way to heaven is by Jesus Christ and not any other misleading method created by people, like SNiper74 has said is that he knows God exist, so do I, but the thing is sniper, most religions have a different God which the people worship, yet some religions believe you continuously become reincarnated thus when you die..you really dont go to heaven.......soooo..I'm not saying anyone is wrong, I wasnt raised to belive what i do, but it's because I myself have experienced and seen things that neither science can explain but only Christianity could and have come to agree and believe in it.
What I don't understand is why religion has to work outside the bounds of science. Perhaps God wanted things to evolve to best suit their enviroments? No one ever seems to think that maybe God did create creatures that could evolve, and that certain things in the bible aren't literal?
Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with.
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. lol.
IronWarrior wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:54 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. lol. OMFG, let the 16 year olds argue all they want! DIE AND TELL ME ALL ABOUT DEATH. Otherwise, look for the answers in all the other forums. Quote what you must, scripture or otherwise. It all comes to the same. Believe what you want. Topic closed, sounds good. ( where is the giant yawn emoticon?)
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. The same could be said about anything we claim we "know", be it religious or not.
Although it appears christianity itself is not based on factual truth, it still doesnt prove that a "God" doesnt exist.. It only proves christianity is not what most people believe it to be.. Its not "impossible", like many other things are.... "I love the pope driving around in his pope-mobile surrounded by 3 feet bulletproof plexi-glass. There is faith in action." (not my quote)
warranto wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 21:06 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. The same could be said about anything we claim we "know", be it religious or not. Yes, that's true. However, the word "know" is usually used to mean that you have some factual basis for believing something, versus saying that god is helping you because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 20:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. I guess thats a "good" comeback which proves God isnt real in your case....seriously, if you want to fight something, I suggest addming some details of experience, or facts or something you know....
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:12 warranto wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 21:06 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. The same could be said about anything we claim we "know", be it religious or not. Yes, that's true. However, the word "know" is usually used to mean that you have some factual basis for believing something, versus saying that god is helping you because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. As do most people who claim to "know" God exists. You can't get more factual than personal experience. Besides, the only reason you believe your parents are who they say they are is because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside
But that's the whole point, though, don't you see? Believing that your personal experience has any relevance in determining truth is ridiculous, because everybody's personal experiences will point their beliefs in different (and often contradictory) directions.
warranto wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 22:10 You can't get more factual than personal experience. haha, no.
tzarmind wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 17:38 What I don't understand is why religion has to work outside the bounds of science. Perhaps God wanted things to evolve to best suit their enviroments? No one ever seems to think that maybe God did create creatures that could evolve, and that certain things in the bible aren't literal? Actually, thats the way I've always thought
Isn't picking and choosing which parts of the bible you want to take literally kind of absurd?
the problem with that theory is that you have to "stick the tail on the donkey" for wherever people feel comfortable removing God from the equation. Did he put a few chemicals together? perhaps he created a few species and left them to it? did he design man? I find the theory to be a way of explaining things for people who choose to follow religion but can't see past the sense of science - so they agree a comprimise.
mrpirate wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 09:26 But that's the whole point, though, don't you see? Believing that your personal experience has any relevance in determining truth is ridiculous, because everybody's personal experiences will point their beliefs in different (and often contradictory) directions. Personal experience is the only thing that we can rightfully claim as a "fact", unless you want to settle claiming what you don't experience as simply a belief (you are told something or read something and must choose whether or not it is truth). If you experience it personally, it is a fact. However, even a fact can be misinterpreted or misunderstood. A good example of the is the SCIENTIFIC FACT that heat transfer is done through an invisible liquid called "caloric" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloric_theory ). This was a SCIENTIFIC FACT that was treated as truth - and even proved as truth in several experiments. Heat transfer can only be experiencd through the "personal experience" mean in order to be proven as a fact, however this did not prevent the interpretation of the fact to be wrong . Something does cause heat transfer (fact proven through personal experience), it is just not an invisible liquid which does this (incorrect interpretation of the personal experience). Edit to clarify last paragraph
warranto wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 12:14 Personal experience is the only thing that we can rightfully claim as a "fact", unless you want to settle claiming what you don't experience as simply a belief (you are told something or read something and must choose whether or not it is truth). If you experience it personally, it is a fact. Does Carlos Castaneda really turn into a crow? Misinterpretation, as you mentioned, seems to make your first paragraph irrelevant.
Actually, it reinforces it. The fact of that statement is that you can claim that you saw him actually turn into the crow. The misinterpretation would be that what you saw was true, where it was a "trick" that caused it to look like it did. Just as it was a "fact" that the invisible liquid existed, despite not actually existing. Confusing? It's supposed to be, so don't worry about that. It also highlights why we can't always trust our personal experiences, but then again, that is all we have to go with as far as facts and knowledge is concerned.
What I'm really talking about is personal experiences with respect to religion; or personal experiences with no physical manifestation with which to be verified. Someone thinking god's talked to them in a dream, for example. Does god exist? To this person, yes, because of a personal experience they've had talking to god. My point is that this personal experience has no bearing on whether or not there is a god.
I think you mean no physical manifestation which has been detectable. Yes, I'm relating to a TV show and combining it with a completely hypothetical situation, but it gives you an idea what I mean. In the show Star Trek, there is an episode which has a life-form trapped, and unable to escape. It sends out messages to a telepath on the ship, who can only receive them in a dream form. There was no way of knowing that these beings were trapped, as all scans of the area showed nothing, however they were still there and only able to communicate through the dreams of one person. Who is to say that something similar is not at work here? The dream was how God chose to communicate to someone, and the reason there is no physical evidence to support it is only due to the fact that nothing exists that can detect it? Just a completely "out in left field" hypothetical situation, but not like something like this has not been seen in real life before.
I'm not saying it's impossible. If, in that episode, there were many "telepaths", each receiving different and sometimes conflicting messages, an objective observer would be inclined not to believe any of them, don't you think?
Most definitely. It doesn't mean the original message wasn't sent by a life-form, though. Just as with the dream, and this whole "fact" thing, just because the message was misinterpreted doesn't mean there was not still a message. As well, even if one interpretation of that message was proven to be wrong, it doesn't mean that the origin of the message does not exist (I'll leave you to interpret that one). sorry for the double negatives.
SpyGuy246 wrote on Sat, 23 June 2007 00:14 Hitler invaded countries to gain more land for Germany and bring about the dominance of his master race. Something to think about. Hehe, and if hitler hadn't invaded europe, Red Alert would have happened, and then in turn, TD, if that happened, I'd be sitting in a tiberium patch right now . Anyway, I'm athiest and proud of it. I accept reason over faith. If you were in a plane for example, would you trust the makers with simply faith and believe the plane will hold together, or would you rather KNOW that this plane won't shatter apart at the first sign of turbulence? I'd go with know, personally but w/e. I'm aware that my analogy isn't that good, but please don't flame me about it >_>.
warranto wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 22:10 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:12 warranto wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 21:06 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 18:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. The same could be said about anything we claim we "know", be it religious or not. Yes, that's true. However, the word "know" is usually used to mean that you have some factual basis for believing something, versus saying that god is helping you because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. As do most people who claim to "know" God exists. You can't get more factual than personal experience. Besides, the only reason you believe your parents are who they say they are is because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside I claim to "know" that he is there because of things that happened to me in my life that are almost impossible to be called coincidences (I think I spelled that right ). I'd post to explain them but you guys would call me a dumb 16 year old and just call me a SUPER lucky guy.
mrpirate wrote on Wed, 27 June 2007 10:59 Isn't picking and choosing which parts of the bible you want to take literally kind of absurd? Who says I'm picking and choosing? No where in the bible does it say that Micro-Evolution isn't possible, nor does it say that Evolution is impossible. It says God put things on earth, it doesn't say what the capabilities of those things were after they were put there .
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 19:52 Sn1per74* wrote on Tue, 26 June 2007 01:03 but I definately KNOW God is real. Why? There are many inexplicable events that happened in my life and I KNOW he helped me. No, you don't "know" anything. You believe that because it fits with whatever bullshit your head has been filled with. Very true, mrpirate. I am sure Sniper74* would be a different person with different beliefs if his parents did not tell him about God when he was young.
haha I guess Sniper's views about the universe were formed without any parental input.