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C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
First off, I know for a fact that this is going to stir up quite a bit of arguments -- so I want to point out early in the thread that I am NOT doing this to start problems. I just wanted to bring an issue to light and see how others felt about it. As many of the folks at clanwars.cc have found out recently: --Two convicted cheaters are being allowed to return to the league --Someone who cheated on a public server under Crimson's name is not being banned on clanwars.cc and is instead getting a forum ban for one month The argument on clanwars.cc was "Do you think this is fair to have convicted cheaters return to the league and do you think that cheating on a public server should earn you a ban in the clanwars.cc Renegade league?". Many people felt that since the two cheaters have done their time, they should be given another chance. They also, for the most part, felt that cheating on public servers isn't a big deal since pub. servers are a joke to them and they could care less about them. My argument was that I do not think a cheater should ever be unbanned under any circumstance, and that if you cheat on a public server you should be banned in every way/shape/form possible ... including on the clanwars.cc Renegade league. This belief worked up a lot of people on clanwars.cc - but I stand firm to it to this day. Clanwars.cc players are going to argue: the punishment was fair, they did their time, and life moves on. People screw around on public servers but its not a big deal since its not an official clanwar. Pub. players are bound to think that is a load of shit. So what do you guys think? Am I over-reacting or making too big of a fuss over this, or is the Renegade league wrong to be this lenient on convicted cheaters?
My take on the matter is pretty simple: First offense --> Perma ban Fuck 'em. Nobody has a right to play games online; it's a privilege contingent on not ruining the experience for everyone else. None of that three strikes crap- nobody cheats by accident. I could see if a newbie used a glitch exploit or something not knowing what it was, but it takes some sort of conscious thought to take a cheat of some kind and install it to use with your game. Doesn't matter what sort of server they were playing in; if they were cheating while playing with other human players then they need to be dealt with. Players who frequent public servers deserve a cheat-free game too.
fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 01:41 As many of the folks at clanwars.cc have found out recently: --Two convicted cheaters are being allowed to return to the league ...under strict conditions and observation fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 01:41 --Someone who cheated on a public server under Crimson's name is not being banned on clanwars.cc and is instead getting a forum ban for one month We've never, ever banned players from the league for stuff that didn't happen in a league match. That's what the clan league is - it relates to clan matches, not public servers. Even the forum ban wasn't standard procedure until I made it so a couple of months ago. fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 01:41 The argument on clanwars.cc was "Do you think this is fair to have convicted cheaters return to the league and do you think that cheating on a public server should earn you a ban in the clanwars.cc Renegade league?". Many people felt that since the two cheaters have done their time, they should be given another chance. They also, for the most part, felt that cheating on public servers isn't a big deal since pub. servers are a joke to them and they could care less about them. My argument was that I do not think a cheater should ever be unbanned under any circumstance, and that if you cheat on a public server you should be banned in every way/shape/form possible ... including on the clanwars.cc Renegade league. This belief worked up a lot of people on clanwars.cc - but I stand firm to it to this day. Clanwars.cc players are going to argue: the punishment was fair, they did their time, and life moves on. People screw around on public servers but its not a big deal since its not an official clanwar. Pub. players are bound to think that is a load of shit. So what do you guys think? Am I over-reacting or making too big of a fuss over this, or is the Renegade league wrong to be this lenient on convicted cheaters? Long before I saw the light, I was a moderator on N00bstories. I recall banning someone (I forget his name) who cheated against DrkXFactr's clan in a clan match. Crimson and DaveGMM unbanned them because the offence wasn't in N00bstories. Do you agree with that, then? As for 'this lenient', the current policy on cheating is stricter than it has ever been, and it's also much fairer than any public server I can think of, because we don't ban people without conclusive evidence.
MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 03:40 Long before I saw the light, I was a moderator on N00bstories. I recall banning someone (I forget his name) who cheated against DrkXFactr's clan in a clan match. Crimson and DaveGMM unbanned them because the offence wasn't in N00bstories. Do you agree with that, then? No, I do not. tbh, I don't agree with the BHS policy of "donate and we'll unban you" either. Fuck the cheaters. Keep them banned. We have years of struggle and drama as a community because of them - why unban them for ANY reason? MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 03:40 As for 'this lenient', the current policy on cheating is stricter than it has ever been, and it's also much fairer than any public server I can think of, because we don't ban people without conclusive evidence. I understand that its stricter than ever and I understand that you don't tolerate cheating, etc. I'm not saying that. It's not my intention to argue with you or flame you over this -- and I think you believe that is my purpose. I just think you're being too lenient with your "stricter" policy and that you should go balls to the wall and keep them banned and ban a cheater ANYWHERE in your league. If I ever end up playing that guy in a clanwar, it will be in the back of my mind that he could be cheating ... even if he's not ... and that paranoia is brought on by people not banning them properly the first time. It's just not fair to the community - and I don't see it as "just" in the league, either. Matter of opinion, I guess. I'm just very gaming ethic -oriented.
I don't think robo and baller should be unbanned - cheating in a cw is worse than cheating in any public server imo and when proof is found they shouldn't ever be unbanned. You can't really draw the comparison between the league and cw.cc though tbh, things are very different I am banned from several servers because i "cheat" I don't care there are plenty more, there is only one league however and public play isn't really an option for some people when they realise that there is NO competition in a public server. Cheating in a public server shouldn't earn a permanent league ban, a lot of members don't give a shit about public server and have their own beef's for whatever reason, however retarded that is it isn't anything to do with the league that would just be imposing additional punishment simply because the people concerned are well known in the community.
Rather than looking at it from the perspective of "the pub. players/servers suck" look at it from the perspective of "cheating is wrong". I understand your point - and tbh, I almost agree from that perspective. But I think the larger issue her is about cheating. Even if they did get banned for nothing ... even if the server owner is a moron ... and even if the gameplay there is the worst anywhere ... I still don't think that gives someone the right to cheat. Some kind of effective punishment for cheating would prevent them from acting foolishly like that in the first place. Further, what if their luck just ran out and they finally got caught cheating - but it happened to be on a pub. server instead of a clanwar? Lets use radar hack as an example since its hard to detect ... would you want to risk that in the league?
At the end of the day you just have to accept the fact that people will always have varying views on this sort of thing, Spoony has to sit in the middle taking shit from both sides, some saying he is too lenient and others say he is too strict. To me that says he is getting the balance right and finding the middle ground. The league should be trying to work as the cw.cc players want it to, I believe your views on the matter fall in the minority of players there and the majority would support the action that has been taken. I really couldn't give a shit what players who do not play in the league think on the matter as it has nothing to do with them and it doesn't affect them. Also don't forget that players can simply refuse to play games against certain players if they wish - I won't play against robo or baller because I don't think they should be playing, you don't have the same power to choose your opponents in a public game. If you feel SS should be banned, don't play him and allow others to make their own judgement.
fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:52 But I think the larger issue her is about cheating. Even if they did get banned for nothing ... even if the server owner is a moron ... and even if the gameplay there is the worst anywhere ... I still don't think that gives someone the right to cheat. I fail to see why my refusal to ban a player without conclusive evidence of their cheating, like so many public servers do, gives players the 'right' to cheat. fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:52 Some kind of effective punishment for cheating would prevent them from acting foolishly like that in the first place. SS didn't cheat in a server I have authority over, so the question becomes: who am I to enforce that penalty? Who gave me the power to dish out a penalty for something that happened outside of my 'jurisdiction'? SS got a punishment (albeit completely ineffective) by Crimson banning his serial for admin impersonation. Of course, in the same thread she said he can just get a new serial, and I guarantee that isn't how I'd run the show when it comes to banned players... but I digress. fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:52 Further, what if their luck just ran out and they finally got caught cheating - but it happened to be on a pub. server instead of a clanwar? Lets use radar hack as an example since its hard to detect ... would you want to risk that in the league? SS didn't get 'caught' cheating, he wasn't trying to hide it, he wasn't using the cheat to make himself look like a better player than he was... If you asked me what's more pathetic: 1. someone being so insecure about their skills on a COMPUTER GAME that they feel the need to cheat to convince people they're elite (best example I can think of is Jschultz) or 2. someone using final ren and whatnot for fun I'd say 1 and I think most of Clanwars.cc would agree with me. Don't get me wrong, '2' is stupid too and I'll penalise that as well, but '1' is just the bottom of the barrel and SS didn't do that.
In public servers, 20 - 40 players get touched by the cheating, in a clanwar only 4-8. I'd say cheating in public servers is way worse than in a clanwar (about 5 times worse, if u follow my reasoning). Once a cheater, always a cheater, doesn't matter where. The moment you touch other gamers with your cheats, you should get a xwis serial ban, just like it happens in RA2 and the other c&c-games Xwis actually does support. Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun! Edit: and if someone gets banned from cw.cc, how do u know he ain't coming back under a different nick, ip and ren serial?
Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 14:27 Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun! Yea, I was thinking the same. Just because some clanwars.cc player hates pubbing, Doesn't mean he has to go ruin it for other players. If he wants to "have fun" They should go cheat in Single Player..
Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 14:27 In public servers, 20 - 40 players get touched by the cheating, in a clanwar only 4-8. I'd say cheating in public servers is way worse than in a clanwar (about 5 times worse, if u follow my reasoning). I have encountered many cheaters in public servers, sure they are annoying but they get banned from the server easily and next map it hasn't affected anything. Cheating in a clanwar to gain points on a league and potentially prizes whilst attempting to appear better than you are in front of people who know you is worse in the eyes of most of the cw community and as we are referring to a cw.cc ban it is their opinions that are paramount. Quote: Once a cheater, always a cheater, doesn't matter where. The moment you touch other gamers with your cheats, you should get a xwis serial ban, just like it happens in RA2 and the other c&c-games Xwis actually does support. I am still inclined to agree with you here, this particular incident is slightly different but I would totally support that as long as 100% evidence could be seen. Quote: Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun! It wouldn't happen, nobody not even Lacostey is that dumb and yes they would receive a ban instantly from the league. However as we both know it is not so much the type of cheat but the reason for using it which is the issue. Quote: Edit: and if someone gets banned from cw.cc, how do u know he ain't coming back under a different nick, ip and ren serial? if someone can change their nick, ip and serial then I don't think there is much anyone can do to stop them playing renegade, cw.cc would have the best chance imo as people talk/play each other and would likely pick up on suspisions that it is a banned player quicker than someone playing on pubs.
Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:27 Once a cheater, always a cheater, doesn't matter where. The moment you touch other gamers with your cheats, you should get a xwis serial ban, just like it happens in RA2 and the other c&c-games Xwis actually does support. I am actually ahead of you on this. Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:27 Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun! I don't know how you came to this conclusion. It can't possibly have been from actually reading and understanding my post, nor could it be from precedent, so please explain how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion. Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:27 Edit: and if someone gets banned from cw.cc, how do u know he ain't coming back under a different nick, ip and ren serial? I've been running leagues at clanwars.cc for a while, and not just Renegade. Let me explain the pattern 95% of the time. 1. Someone cheats or pointpushes 2. I ban them 3. They try to sneak back into the league 4. I catch them ALMOST IMMEDIATELY and ban them again, reset their clan, and suspend the players who harboured them 5. They repeat step 3 6. I repeat step 5 Steps 3-6 repeat until the cheater finally gets the message. I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE YOU that my leagues are better in that regard than ANY public server, and I've got the track record to illustrate it. And I say again: unlike the vast majority of public servers, step 2 doesn't happen unless step 1 has been conclusively proven. Anything else?
Quote: I am actually ahead of you on this. Care to elaborate? And I swear you edited your post (but I could be wrong).
Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 21:41 Quote: I am actually ahead of you on this. Care to elaborate? Not yet. Soon, hopefully. Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 21:41 And I swear you edited your post (but I could be wrong). You are, indeed, wrong.
The cheater in question was caught on MULTIPLE servers using either instant kill or instant repair with a repair gun and being rather obvious about it. There is no question as to whether this person was cheating or not, and it was on multiple servers, ruining the game for dozens of players. Even one kill or one repair that wasn't gained fairly can turn the tides and change the entire course of the game. It shouldn't be shrugged off. I know that no one was stupid enough to think it was actually me cheating, but I feel bad that someone's childish attack on me hurt so many players. :\
fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 04:06 No, I do not. tbh, I don't agree with the BHS policy of "donate and we'll unban you" either. That's a joke policy, not a real one. I've never actually gotten any money donated for that. LOL Besides, the ban was for using a bypass that we caught automatically. If they tried to use it again, they would have been re-banned before they even got back onto a server with it.
Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:17 The cheater in question was caught on MULTIPLE servers using either instant kill or instant repair with a repair gun and being rather obvious about it. There is no question as to whether this person was cheating or not, and it was on multiple servers, ruining the game for dozens of players. Even one kill or one repair that wasn't gained fairly can turn the tides and change the entire course of the game. It shouldn't be shrugged off. Who's shrugging it off? I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't...
Well anyone refusing to ban a cheater in any server, is a fucking shit stain upon life and therefore should get shot in the head alongside the cheating bastard. Fuck cheaters, ban them from everything. So I agree with fl00d3d. I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you.
IWarriors wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:46 I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you. BalleRJv Robo ^^ click the links for evidence.
MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 17:30 IWarriors wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:46 I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you. BalleRJv Robo ^^ click the links for evidence. Thank you, after reviewing what the topics, they been banned, also found they was already banned in one or two servers already. Good game.
MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:28 Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:17 The cheater in question was caught on MULTIPLE servers using either instant kill or instant repair with a repair gun and being rather obvious about it. There is no question as to whether this person was cheating or not, and it was on multiple servers, ruining the game for dozens of players. Even one kill or one repair that wasn't gained fairly can turn the tides and change the entire course of the game. It shouldn't be shrugged off. Who's shrugging it off? I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't... I didn't say you did. Read my words again ("It shouldn't be shrugged off.") and don't put other ones in my mouth. MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:30 IWarriors wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:46 I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you. BalleRJv Robo ^^ click the links for evidence. I'm sure he wants the names and IPs of SS so they can ban him, too. He goes by JohnDoe on here.
Does this includes BHEkiller? because you even heard him say he used big bodies in various servers, and which I thought you would not support cheaters?
I don't get this debate. What clanwars does is no ones concern but theirs. If they allow a proven cheater (past or present) to play in their leauge then it only matters to the officials and players of that leauge IN that leauge. If n00bstories bans someone for cheating in another server that is our business and our right. It doesn't effect anyone else.
I think cheaters should be given one chance. Some newbies get frustrated when they get beat by experienced players, and as a result cheat. They should learn once that it's wrong, but after that, there are no more freebies.
NukeIt15 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 02:05 My take on the matter is pretty simple: First offense --> Perma ban Fuck 'em. Nobody has a right to play games online; it's a privilege contingent on not ruining the experience for everyone else. None of that three strikes crap- nobody cheats by accident. I could see if a newbie used a glitch exploit or something not knowing what it was, but it takes some sort of conscious thought to take a cheat of some kind and install it to use with your game. Doesn't matter what sort of server they were playing in; if they were cheating while playing with other human players then they need to be dealt with. Players who frequent public servers deserve a cheat-free game too. totally agree
Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 19:50 I'm sure he wants the names and IPs of SS so they can ban him, too. He goes by JohnDoe on here. Names he commonly plays by (as far as clanwars goes) H2Hitler JohnDoe JohnDough IP: Not helping you on this one.
i think this goes well here. http://unclanforum.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=junk&action=display&t hread=1168087385
MexPirate wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 08:28 I really couldn't give a shit what players who do not play in the league think on the matter as it has nothing to do with them and it doesn't affect them. Also don't forget that players can simply refuse to play games against certain players if they wish - I won't play against robo or baller because I don't think they should be playing, you don't have the same power to choose your opponents in a public game. If you feel SS should be banned, don't play him and allow others to make their own judgement. What a BULLSHIT statement. It affects everyone and has everything to do with us. Without Joe Public reporting to you, the cheats will have an even bigger field to play on. We, the public suffer at the hands of the cheat as much as anyone else. As regards leaving a game/server, thats a joke. Now you want me to lie down and accept that there will still be known cheats amongst us. When they play, using an alias and we dont know its them, do you still want me to leave the game because at that rate I will be leaving almost every game as someone shouts "They are cheating" and all because it may be the cheat using an alias. Once a cheat, always a cheat, regardless of who and how long they have been cheat free. They cant resist the chance to see if they can control it. Every addiction is like that and cheating is no different. The control lies with the Server Admin. Permanent ban for all cheats convicted with proof, that is beyond reasonable doubt.
puddle_splasher wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 06:17 The control lies with the Server Admin. Permanent ban for all cheats convicted with proof, that is beyond reasonable doubt. I agree, but many servers overlook the 'proof' part - thus, non-cheaters being banned too.
MaidenTy1 wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 00:46 Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 19:50 I'm sure he wants the names and IPs of SS so they can ban him, too. He goes by JohnDoe on here. Names he commonly plays by (as far as clanwars goes) H2Hitler JohnDoe JohnDough IP: Not helping you on this one. Not helping or cannot help. There is a slight difference. Personally speaking, I would name and shame them, with any relevent information I had, IPs included.
The policy at Clanwars.cc is that IPs are to be used only by admins for the purposes of moderating the leagues, and not given to someone outside of the league's chain of command. I intend to adhere to that policy. If you want me to give you a complete list of every warrior name he has used for clan matches, I will. But I am not giving you his IP.
The BlackIntel guys caught him using: CRlMSON:217.233.247.24 I was able to use that IP to link him to his forum account here ("JohnDoe"). I'm not sure if he's changed it yet or not. Edit: They also showed this proof: EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 05:47 Quote: [21/12/06 16:53:57] Host: Potential cheat detected: Blocked 10000.000000 damage with warhead 13 from player CRlMSON (21). Our anti cheat system logged this for like 424 times, and it all got blocked (now he would have bee banned after the first time, but since we didnt have that feature then he could try it more often ) Also Username and ip: CRlMSON:217.233.247.24
If you were to ban every person that's cheated once, you'd probably have a significantly smaller population then you would have now. In fact, for the people who actually *know* how to find and download them, I'd say I would be probably in the less than 50% who haven't decided to try it. I'm not dumb enough to go and ruin everybody's game just for the sake of my having fun. Besides, I've had enough trouble as it is with server moderators thinking I cheat, testing me/or not even testing me, and even after they test me, and I pass, I still get banned. Last time I checked (a couple months ago) I was still banned on the KOSs server. Reasonable since i was banned until RG 1.04 (I laughed at this because I knew that it pretty much meant I was banned permanently) Then I later got banned from like 2 other servers because *they* labeled me a cheater by banning me, without any proof. Not only that, but me and the person who got banned unrightfully, have caught moderators that were cheating before (not KOSs's, I'm just saying that it'd be a little weird for a person to cheat and then go and catch cheaters by using our own time to prove it, when it's not our job but the servers). Hell, I've caught a few public people cheating and frapsed them and told server moderators. In n00bless, where I caught one of the cheaters, I took a video and it was pretty conclusive proof that the person in question did more damage then he was supposed to. It's not too common you see someone doing 10.5 damage with a GDI rifle, is it? And 52.5 for headshots. However, that wasn't proof enough that the guy cheated I guess. It's a lot more proof than what i've always been banned on, which is none... You'd think that also cheating when you're a moderator is the worst thing to do, considering the fact that the whole purpose of a moderator is to *uphold* rules, and that would be like telling the server moderators that you will not break them. So you'd think punishments would be worse than the average joe blow who cheats. But that'd be a perfect world.
Sniper_De if you weren't cheating, then I'm honnestly sorry but we cannot take the risk.
puddle_splasher wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 05:17 MexPirate wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 08:28 I really couldn't give a shit what players who do not play in the league think on the matter as it has nothing to do with them and it doesn't affect them. Also don't forget that players can simply refuse to play games against certain players if they wish - I won't play against robo or baller because I don't think they should be playing, you don't have the same power to choose your opponents in a public game. If you feel SS should be banned, don't play him and allow others to make their own judgement. What a BULLSHIT statement. It affects everyone and has everything to do with us. Without Joe Public reporting to you, the cheats will have an even bigger field to play on. We, the public suffer at the hands of the cheat as much as anyone else. As regards leaving a game/server, thats a joke. Now you want me to lie down and accept that there will still be known cheats amongst us. When they play, using an alias and we dont know its them, do you still want me to leave the game because at that rate I will be leaving almost every game as someone shouts "They are cheating" and all because it may be the cheat using an alias. Once a cheat, always a cheat, regardless of who and how long they have been cheat free. They cant resist the chance to see if they can control it. Every addiction is like that and cheating is no different. The control lies with the Server Admin. Permanent ban for all cheats convicted with proof, that is beyond reasonable doubt. Christ you are a fucking moron how does a players participation in the cw.cc league affect you? you are unlikely to run in to SS in a public server anyway, pretty sure 90% would ban him without the cheats cos he would straight rape everyone, he prefers to play against people who actually have some level of skill.
Not to mention he has a huge ego and attitude problem which would already convince a lot of server moderators to ban him.
I'm not arguing with you. Your server was just one of the best cases of unfairness. Though, I think I've also been banned twice after doing a test and passing it, and that's a bit more retarded. I think that's equally as dumb as not even going through and testing people, as you don't seem fond of doing. I'd rather have a person who was prooved a cheater than just banning on instinct and hoping the person was cheating and then you can go and tell other servers that the person was *Proven* to be a cheater. It gives the people who were banned and weren't cheating some credibility to at least know they were willing to test. It's up to the moderators to figure out what kind of cheat they were using. The fact that I asked over and over again what you guys thought I was using so that I could have at least seen if it was able to be tested. If you thought I was using a cheat that was was possible to test, and prove i was a cheater, I don't really see why you wouldn't want to do that. But as was already said before, you didn't say anything. The only thing you said was that you had a gut feeling. That's fine I guess, but a gut feeling that... getting too many headshots?/doing more damage/etc. The sad part about it is that after RG 1.04 comes out, if it does (Don't get your hopes up people), that people will still be banned without proof. The minute people start shouting "Bypass!" is when it'll just happen all over again. I don't really care about being banned anymore, obviously I've lived with it, and I find it more funny that i'm still banned than I am mad about it. The average cheater would have just changed his IP and went cheating again. Edit: Have you played in clanwars and against a clan like H20? I know you've played GW. Does it still seem a bit strange that there could be people out there that are even *better* than us? (me and mrp)
Sniper_De7 wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 05:48 The sad part about it is that after RG 1.04 comes out, if it does (Don't get your hopes up people) Oh it WILL come out, no matter what I have to do to get it.
I can't tell you when. I fucking wish I could. I'm probably just going to throw money at the problem like I always end up doing.
Quote: Edit: Have you played in clanwars and against a clan like H20? I know you've played GW. Does it still seem a bit strange that there could be people out there that are even *better* than us? (me and mrp) Strange that you ask: we played GW and got owned obviously. But not once we thought they were cheating. They were much faster and strategically superior but they didn't make a crazy amount of HS's/damage.
MexPirate wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 06:39 puddle_splasher wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 05:17 MexPirate wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 08:28 I really couldn't give a shit what players who do not play in the league think on the matter as it has nothing to do with them and it doesn't affect them. Also don't forget that players can simply refuse to play games against certain players if they wish - I won't play against robo or baller because I don't think they should be playing, you don't have the same power to choose your opponents in a public game. If you feel SS should be banned, don't play him and allow others to make their own judgement. What a BULLSHIT statement. It affects everyone and has everything to do with us. Without Joe Public reporting to you, the cheats will have an even bigger field to play on. We, the public suffer at the hands of the cheat as much as anyone else. As regards leaving a game/server, thats a joke. Now you want me to lie down and accept that there will still be known cheats amongst us. When they play, using an alias and we dont know its them, do you still want me to leave the game because at that rate I will be leaving almost every game as someone shouts "They are cheating" and all because it may be the cheat using an alias. Once a cheat, always a cheat, regardless of who and how long they have been cheat free. They cant resist the chance to see if they can control it. Every addiction is like that and cheating is no different. The control lies with the Server Admin. Permanent ban for all cheats convicted with proof, that is beyond reasonable doubt. Christ you are a fucking moron how does a players participation in the cw.cc league affect you? you are unlikely to run in to SS in a public server anyway, pretty sure 90% would ban him without the cheats cos he would straight rape everyone, he prefers to play against people who actually have some level of skill. I am that player with the skill, without cheating, you fucking moron It affects us more than you think but you are so fucking stupid to comprehend that thought, even if its 10% of a number, that you plucked out of thin air, its still cheating. One cheat, one kill, one vehicle loss, can inadvertantly change the game. But again you are so self-righteous towards the cheats that all I see is you agreeing with them. You Sir, as the saying goes, are the moron. Cheat, get caught, have evidence, permanent ban. Thats so simple a 5 year old can understand it.
puddle_splasher wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 08:44 I am that player with the skill, without cheating, you fucking moron It affects us more than you think but you are so fucking stupid to comprehend that thought, even if its 10% of a number, that you plucked out of thin air, its still cheating. One cheat, one kill, one vehicle loss, can inadvertantly change the game. But again you are so self-righteous towards the cheats that all I see is you agreeing with them. You Sir, as the saying goes, are the moron. Cheat, get caught, have evidence, permanent ban. Thats so simple a 5 year old can understand it. Good for you, glad you are so pro and don't need the cheats, do you actually play on the cw.cc league? I am assuming not, please correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps you should read and understand what you quote before talking a load of bullshit, my point is that people who DO NOT use the league should have no say on how it is run, how does someone being BANNED FROM THE LEAGUE affect someone who only plays in public servers? This isn't a topic about public servers, it is about banning people FROM THE LEAGUE, there is no dispute that someone cheating in a pulic server should get a ban in that server and any other at the server owners discretion - but I think you missed the whole point of the thread because you were busy being self righteous. Unless you play on cw.cc ladder - your opinion means exactly jack shit to the people that do when it comes to how the league is run.
Goztow wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 08:17 Quote: Edit: Have you played in clanwars and against a clan like H20? I know you've played GW. Does it still seem a bit strange that there could be people out there that are even *better* than us? (me and mrp) Strange that you ask: we played GW and got owned obviously. But not once we thought they were cheating. They were much faster and strategically superior but they didn't make a crazy amount of HS's/damage. So what, out of the time you were infantry versing them, not once did you get killed easily? You can't exactly talk about 'faster" or "strategics" in a public when you're only one guy. I mean a clanwar is about 80% tanks so it's not like you have a full affect, but besides GW are good and everything, but they aren't the best. the top clanwars people play tons of clanwars each month and have that much more practice. But what, Did you think that I did a "crazy" amount of headshots? As far as I remember I didn't even do that well, i think I had terrible FPS because I left IE on and didn't remember to turn it off. Not to mention I was mostly in a vehicle if i remember... Except on snow, where i body shotted that ref guy where he banned me afterwards.
Sniper_De7 wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 10:47 where i body shotted that ref guy where he banned me afterwards. /me bites lip till it bleeds.
Well, I think you guys are missing Fl00d3d's point. His opinion is that by allowing someone who (indisputedly) cheated in a few public servers to still compete in their league paints the league in a bad light. He also feels that when the representatives and members of the league say that "We don't give a shit about public servers because there is no skill there" further paints the league in a bad light for people who might have been considering joining said league. In his (and maybe others) opinion, it makes people question the legitimacy of the league when "convicted" cheaters are allowed to participate. I don't think anyone expects those of us who don't participate in the league to give a shit about who is or isn't allowed to compete in it. Fl00d3d's concern was for the league, not for those of us outside of it.
Crimson wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 15:59 Well, I think you guys are missing Fl00d3d's point. His opinion is that by allowing someone who (indisputedly) cheated in a few public servers to still compete in their league paints the league in a bad light. He also feels that when the representatives and members of the league say that "We don't give a shit about public servers because there is no skill there" further paints the league in a bad light for people who might have been considering joining said league. In his (and maybe others) opinion, it makes people question the legitimacy of the league when "convicted" cheaters are allowed to participate. I don't think anyone expects those of us who don't participate in the league to give a shit about who is or isn't allowed to compete in it. Fl00d3d's concern was for the league, not for those of us outside of it. 1. The only official representative of the Clanwars.cc league is me, and I've made it perfectly clear that we take a dim view of cheating even outside of league matches, to the extent of dishing out forum suspensions. 2. "He also feels that when the representatives and members of the league say that "We don't give a shit about public servers because there is no skill there"" - again, *I*, the only official representative who has posted on the subject, said no such thing. The difference between you and I is I am capable of handling my official projects in a mature, unbiased, and uncorrupt way. 3. Look at all the sad, pathetic little wretches on this forum you've issued no penalty whatsoever to... 0x90, Slavik453, Kholdstare... yourself... do you think SS comes close to being as pathetic as any of those? I've made it clear Clanwars.cc does not support SS's actions and will penalise league players for it. You won't lift a finger about 0x90 because "it won't stop him making cheats". You won't lift a finger about Kholdstare ddosing your own moderators in your own server because, well, we've already been through the whole "pet bulldog" thing and the fact you find it useful to be on his good side.
I was rephrasing fl00d3d's post, not adding my own two cents. Don't attack me when I didn't even give my opinion at all.
Yes, and I'm surprised you can't see it.
Quote: at·tack /əˈtæk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-tak] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object) 1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands. 2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy. 3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly. 4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement. 5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation. 6. to set about (a task) or go to work on (a thing) vigorously: to attack housecleaning; to attack the hamburger hungrily. 7. (of disease, destructive agencies, etc.) to begin to affect. –verb (used without object) 8. to make an attack; begin hostilities. –noun 9. the act of attacking; onslaught; assault. 10. a military offensive against an enemy or enemy position. 11. Pathology. seizure by disease or illness: an attack of indigestion. 12. the beginning or initiating of any action; onset. 13. an aggressive move in a performance or contest. 14. the approach or manner of approach in beginning a musical phrase.
Crimson wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 00:01 3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly. I didn't do this - merely refuted your statement for the utter garbage it was. Crimson wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 00:01 4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement. Criticism is the same as attack all of a sudden? In your mind, no doubt it is since you've said over and over again you don't consider yourself answerable to this community. But to a competent admin, criticism and attack are miles apart. Crimson wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 00:01 5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation. Irrelevant, since I wasn't trying to do that. I was simply explaining why you were absolutely dead wrong again. And like you seem to do every single time you make a ludicrous statement and someone proves you wrong, all you can think of is "OMG STOP ATTACKING ME!"
I WAS REPHRASING WHAT FL00D3D SAID, NOT POSTING MY OWN OPINION. I'm done with this. You are taking a break from this forum until you learn to respect my position, if not me personally. We'll start with 30 days and see how it goes.
Back on topic all!!! Cheats, ban or allow.
puddle_splasher wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 03:46 Back on topic all!!! Cheats, ban or allow. Umm that isn't the topic tbh.
MexPirate wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 07:14 puddle_splasher wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 03:46 Back on topic all!!! Cheats, ban or allow. Umm that isn't the topic tbh. "Treatment of convicted cheaters" is the topic "TBH". Ban or Allow?
Crim.... -_- Please unban Spoony. I know you two don't get along, but banning him from the forums isn't going to help anything. Not to mention he didn't break any rules. (more to come in private)
Crimson wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 01:09 I WAS REPHRASING WHAT FL00D3D SAID, NOT POSTING MY OWN OPINION. I'm done with this. You are taking a break from this forum until you learn to respect my position, if not me personally. We'll start with 30 days and see how it goes. Crimson, Have some sence. I dont want to get into this, but i dont think banning him/her really proved anything... Just because he/she is a jerk, is no reason to ban them (from the forums?) You have to allow people to have their own opinion on people, even if its you.
Crimson wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 14:54 There's far more to it than that. Understood, but its still only a forum, they are still only words.... Sure hes a dick, sure hes been a cheater before (not positive) But still, Banning him for simply saying some nasty things is pretty bad... Kinda reminds me of back two summers ago....i forget his name though. Bah, i remembered. Kinghigh Or Knighigh or whatever his name was. Now HE had a reason....
cheekay77 wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 13:59 sure hes been a cheater before (not positive) JohnDoe was caught hacking on dozens of servers with a look a like nickname that was close to Crimson.
I'm not personally aware of any incident of Spoony cheating, and he himself will swear on anything he holds dear that he's never cheated... so I would conclude that you are mistaken in that. We have been very specifically asked NOT to argue in public and preferably not at all... so if he's going to continue posts like the ones he made yesterday, then I don't see any other choice but to give him a time-out.
think someone is getting confused between SS and Spoony, assuming JonDoe has already been banned from here aswell as cw.cc as he has been silent on all this. As Crimson said, Spoony doesn't and never has cheated. Forum ban doesn't help anything, I don't understand why he is the only one that seems to get censored around here - this is usually the most free speaking forum in the whole community, whether or not he went about it in the right way you are both trying to achieve the same thing and banning him sends the wrong message to people on both sides of the fence as well as those sitting firmly on it. Perhaps requesting that he drop irrelevant issues from the past in order to return here might be an acceptable comprimise, believe it or not there are still plenty of people that would much prefer to see BHS/n00bstories/renforums and cw.cc getting along and working together.
I'm sorry you see it that way, but as I said before, we were specifically instructed NOT to argue and to have a cease-fire. It's clear that he has no intentions on following instructions so I have to force him to comply, at least as far as my forums are concerned.
Crimson wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 16:44 I'm sorry you see it that way, but as I said before, we were specifically instructed NOT to argue and to have a cease-fire. It's clear that he has no intentions on following instructions so I have to force him to comply, at least as far as my forums are concerned. Instructed by who may I ask?
So they know we exist now? That's an improvement...
any chance they might see you banning him as breaching that ceasefire? Especially when he is claiming that he is looking to resolve issues and there is no response from yourself? Don't see how stopping him from posting is helping to proove your point or innocence. If he was to continue "attacking" you then surely that would simply enforce your position and ensure that EA look more favourably on yourself?
It doesn't prove anyone's point or guilt, or innocence. They were instructed to drop it - plain and simply. Despite that warning, things continued on. Spoony seems reluctant to let things simply drop without proving himself correct (only an uninformed assumption), for whatever reason, so something had to be done to get it to drop. Edit: Just so my position is known: Had this been a discussion on the CW forums, I would have fully supported a ban on Crimson, and had both been regular users on my forum, I would have banned them both. It's simply a timeout rather than a permanent ban, but it does take two to argue.
Anyone who knows him should know that he doesn't let something drop. He's burned his bridges with me and since he has basically said that he's not willing to "agree to disagree" and just NOT talk to each other unless absolutely necessary (which I am willing to do), then all I can do is stop the discussions from happening HERE. He's still going on and on over at the CW forums and that's his right. If he wants to keep it there, fine... but I don't want it here. I let him say everything he wanted to say a few months ago, but the time has passed, his point is made... now it needs to drop.
Crimson, if EA gave a shit they'd have access on these forums and see to it that you two weren't fighting. They don't care. Please don't hype it up. Not a single person here is any more special than another ... and that includes both Crimson and Spoony. These are supposed to be the official renegade forums and since he didn't break any rules he should be unbanned. Speaking your opinion isn't a ban-able offense. If you want to separate the BHS forums from the official Renegade forums and ban him from there, go for it. If you want to ban him from n00bstories, go for it. I just think that things are starting to go a bit too far. Spoony just got done telling people on clanwars.cc to lighten up with the personal attacks on you, and I know for a fact that he's given up any public attacks on you (unless someone can show proof?). Enough is enough.
Public posts from him such as: "Attempting to reason with you is like trying to teach algebra to a chimp, it really is..." "The difference between you and I is I am capable of handling my official projects in a mature, unbiased, and uncorrupt way." ...do, in fact, qualify. And it was only getting worse. He is claiming that our contact at EA didn't tell me that this crap needed to end, but as far as I know he wasn't secretly listening into the phone call. He said that we either needed to work it out or stop talking to each other. I chose the latter.
Crimson wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 17:21 Public posts from him such as: "Attempting to reason with you is like trying to teach algebra to a chimp, it really is..." "The difference between you and I is I am capable of handling my official projects in a mature, unbiased, and uncorrupt way." ...do, in fact, qualify. And it was only getting worse. He is claiming that our contact at EA didn't tell me that this crap needed to end, but as far as I know he wasn't secretly listening into the phone call. He said that we either needed to work it out or stop talking to each other. I chose the latter. You have a point, there was no need for such comments, not really ban worthy just because he chose not to mince his words though - you two obviously have a lot of history and I don't think either of you can really claim to be saints but the simple fact is that you share common goals and he is now claiming that he is prepared to be civil and work together in order to reach them assuming you do the same. If he comes in here and continues with childish insults then you are prooved right and he looks like a fool. Just seems a shame to throw away a chance at peace even if it's just an act for both of you. He claimed that HE hadn't recieved any such instruction from EA, which I believe at some point you claimed he had, not that it makes a huge difference. And why the fuck is this community supposed to be answering to EA all of a sudden, they care less about us and this game than XWIS, prooven I think by the fact that you are having to empty your pockets in order to prevent cheaters when it should be their fucking responsibility. They just made a shit load of money from the first decade and didn't even bother to complete a competition advertising it let alone increase support or update the games. To sum up, please give it one more try - if only to proove Spoony wrong if you really believe he cannot stick to his words and tell EA to go fuck themselves, for they are the devil incarnate.
Have you read his proposal? I will show it to you, but let me summarize it: Dear Crimson: I think we should ban cheaters from XWIS to give them a message that we don't like them cheating. You are incompetent, therefore it should be hosted by XWIS and not you. Also, you should have nothing to do with it whatsoever because you make promises and don't deliver anything. Did I mention you were incompetent? So, please consider my idea because I want to make peace with you even though you are incompetent. -Spoony P.S. You are incompetent.
Uh, also, I don't answer to EA. I had merely asked EA to help us accomplish our goals by giving us the source for the game and letting us release patches through the Westwood Auto-updater because being able to patch ALL clients would give us a lot more power in fighting cheaters since players would be forced to patch or get version mismatch when they tried to join a server. But Spoony pre-emptively went to EA and said "Hey guys, Crimson is going to ask to take over hosting the Renegade listing service and wants to take it away from XWIS. These are all the reasons why you should deny her request." Never mind that I never intended to ask such a thing and I have NO idea how such an idea got into his head. So, when I had my extremely time-limited conference over the phone with him, I had to waste several minutes of that time talking about the "Spoony situation" that he should have never known about in the first place. So now when I decide to remove him from the forums that I built and I pay for, he goes and cries to EA about it? Ridiculous. I don't answer to EA and I will not set a precedent that he can cry to EA when I don't do what he wants me to do and get results from it. I have done a lot more for EA than they have done for me, of that you can be damn sure.
fl00d3d wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 17:39 Spoony just got done telling people on clanwars.cc to lighten up with the personal attacks on you And yet he obviously condones CW members coming here and making topics like "hey fat ugly bitch", and registering names like "fatuglybitch", after which they post links on the CW forum laughing about it, with no rebuke from spoony or any other moderation.
:offtopic:
Blazer wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 19:03 fl00d3d wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 17:39 Spoony just got done telling people on clanwars.cc to lighten up with the personal attacks on you And yet he obviously condones CW members coming here and making topics like "hey fat ugly bitch", and registering names like "fatuglybitch", after which they post links on the CW forum laughing about it, with no rebuke from spoony or any other moderation. To be fair to Spoony on that one, he hasn't been online for hours - those tards were acting on their own accord and not under any instruction from Spoony. Sure he will post a comment when he comes online, then make your judgements.
Blazer wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 20:03 fl00d3d wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 17:39 Spoony just got done telling people on clanwars.cc to lighten up with the personal attacks on you And yet he obviously condones CW members coming here and making topics like "hey fat ugly bitch", and registering names like "fatuglybitch", after which they post links on the CW forum laughing about it, with no rebuke from spoony or any other moderation. He cannot punish them for doing that. All he can do is ask them to stop - which he has.
Crimson wrote on Tue, 09 January 2007 19:09 Uh, also, I don't answer to EA. I had merely asked EA to help us accomplish our goals by giving us the source for the game and letting us release patches through the Westwood Auto-updater because being able to patch ALL clients would give us a lot more power in fighting cheaters since players would be forced to patch or get version mismatch when they tried to join a server. But Spoony pre-emptively went to EA and said "Hey guys, Crimson is going to ask to take over hosting the Renegade listing service and wants to take it away from XWIS. These are all the reasons why you should deny her request." Never mind that I never intended to ask such a thing and I have NO idea how such an idea got into his head. So, when I had my extremely time-limited conference over the phone with him, I had to waste several minutes of that time talking about the "Spoony situation" that he should have never known about in the first place. So now when I decide to remove him from the forums that I built and I pay for, he goes and cries to EA about it? Ridiculous. I don't answer to EA and I will not set a precedent that he can cry to EA when I don't do what he wants me to do and get results from it. I have done a lot more for EA than they have done for me, of that you can be damn sure. I just read this. I still think that Spoony should be un-banned as he has not violated any rules. I also think that the whole concept of "mine mine mine" of these forums and such should die immediately because you took on a responsibility to the community, not yourself. These forums are for the community - and personal bias should not be playing into this. We all know you hate Spoony, but that is absolutely no grounds to ban him. Hypotheticlly speaking what if someone had some good points, truths, or opinions they wanted to share that did not go along with how you wanted things to go (or which weren't in sync with your opinions): would you ban them too? I'm not trying to be argumentative or target you Crimson, but I do think that this is starting to get a bit out of control.
But he tells us (and complains to EA) that we havn't banned people like 0x90, who have not broken any forum rules whatsoever. So if he isn't supposed to punish people who mess with other peoples stuff, why are we dragged through the mud for doing something similar?
If anyone wants to read how Spoony speaks to me in private while calling them "olive branches" aka "peace offerings"... here you go: http://www.n00bstories.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=90757&#msg_90757
My humble opinion on all this after having read through it all on both forums and after MSN conversation with Spoony. Remember, I consider myself an outsider in this whole "vendetta": 1. If the cw.cc community and renforums community could work together to counter cheaters then they should. The contents of Spoony's proposal does seem to me worthwhile as it is a solution which can work in short term without a lot of effort, but based on cooperation from the community. I technically believe that xwis bans will make cheaters think twice, especially because some people are working at ways to make sure people without a valid xwis serial will not be able to join the server. I also believe there are better ways but they will ask more time and cooperation with xwis/EA. 2. To be able to cooperate, you need a basis of respect and objectivity from both sides, otherwise you will fail miserably. At this moment, I tend to believe both sides have problems with this point. Spoony is very bad in packing his proposals, as is a big part of the cw.cc community (many seem to find it a good idea to throw in a lot of insults when things aren't exactly going the way it should go). There's a lot of prejudices already instored and as long as both sides won't go to the core of the problem and focus objectively on what can be done with respect towards eachother, all this hasn't got the slightest chance of succeeding. So yes: Spoony's proposal makes sence but what a terrible public relations person you make if you use a perfectly sensible proposal to throw in a couple of other issues to make the other partie look bad. If you REALLY want a peace treaty, then don't you think it would be good to pack your proposal as one? Where's the "let's forget about the past, I want to work with you and not against you"? In your mind, you may think of things as completely objective and maybe they are (I won't judge) but that's no reason to write them down as if in a proposal ment as peace treaty. Then again, Crimson: you are correct that this wasn't exactly packed as what you could call a peace treaty but you take the opportunity to throw this back at Spoony and, at the meanwhile, throw away the complete proposal. Both your reactions make me ask the question "do you both want what's best for the renegade community or do you want what you propose as being best for the Renegade community"? Wouldn't it be fair to strip the proposal of political stuff and discuss the proposal itself before discussing who can administrate the whole thing? But before doing this: dress a seperate, clear "peace treaty" in which both parties agree to forget about past problems and agree to respect and defend eachother statements in public forums. PLEASE keep your vendetta away from public forums, for the love of God: it doesn't benefit the renegade community AT ALL, it only makes us look like clowns towards xwis and EA. IMO it would be best for everyone to have a third person, trusted by both parties, with a good knowledge of cheaters, administrate this anti-cheating proposal. Whoever this could be is an open question but ain't important at all if you two can't work at above problems first. 3. If you guys REALLY cannot get over all of this and if you REALLY believe there is no way to make bridges, then the only solution is to do what Crimson has said so far: stay FAR away from eachother but then you need an agreement to do this and to stop the stupid fighting/disrespecting. But if you agree to do this anyway, then you may as well work together on some projects, right? My two cents, hopefully this can make something work.
Goztow wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 04:02 1. If the cw.cc community and renforums community could work together to counter cheaters then they should. The contents of Spoony's proposal does seem to me worthwhile as it is a solution which can work in short term without a lot of effort, but based on cooperation from the community. I technically believe that xwis bans will make cheaters think twice, especially because some people are working at ways to make sure people without a valid xwis serial will not be able to join the server. I also believe there are better ways but they will ask more time and cooperation with xwis/EA. It may SEEM worthwhile on the surface, but if you look at the most prevalent bypass out there and the people making the cheats, this idea simply will provide a false sense of security not unlike the current iteration of RenGuard. And why should we have two easily-bypassed anti-cheat solutions when one is more than enough? There are also some other factors I simply can't talk about in public. I think the BI guys can agree with me on that. Quote: 2. To be able to cooperate, you need a basis of respect and objectivity from both sides, otherwise you will fail miserably. At this moment, I tend to believe both sides have problems with this point. Well, I do respect certain aspects of his work... maybe that's a start. Quote: Spoony is very bad in packing his proposals, as is a big part of the cw.cc community (many seem to find it a good idea to throw in a lot of insults when things aren't exactly going the way it should go). Nice to see someone agreeing with me on this. Spoony essentially told me that it didn't matter that he insulted me so long as he felt what he was saying was true. Quote: There's a lot of prejudices already instored and as long as both sides won't go to the core of the problem and focus objectively on what can be done with respect towards eachother, all this hasn't got the slightest chance of succeeding. So yes: Spoony's proposal makes sence but what a terrible public relations person you make if you use a perfectly sensible proposal to throw in a couple of other issues to make the other partie look bad. If you REALLY want a peace treaty, then don't you think it would be good to pack your proposal as one? Where's the "let's forget about the past, I want to work with you and not against you"? In your mind, you may think of things as completely objective and maybe they are (I won't judge) but that's no reason to write them down as if in a proposal ment as peace treaty. I can't disagree with that. I can dig up the few times over the past few years that I've sent peace offerings that didn't include insults and show you what happened... Quote: Then again, Crimson: you are correct that this wasn't exactly packed as what you could call a peace treaty but you take the opportunity to throw this back at Spoony and, at the meanwhile, throw away the complete proposal. Incorrect, I threw away the proposal for the reasons I stated above as to the potential for effectiveness. If I thought the idea was good but wanted to act biased against Spoony, I would have ACCEPTED the idea and put someone else at the helm of it. There is ample evidence of me taking the advice of others and acting on it when it's good and usable advice. Quote: Both your reactions make me ask the question "do you both want what's best for the renegade community or do you want what you propose as being best for the Renegade community"? I don't see the difference. Of course I want what's best for the community... I don't intend to waste my time or money. Quote: Wouldn't it be fair to strip the proposal of political stuff and discuss the proposal itself before discussing who can administrate the whole thing? We already did that... once I removed Spoony from posting here we were able to discuss the proposal itself in civil terms without insults. Quote: But before doing this: dress a seperate, clear "peace treaty" in which both parties agree to forget about past problems and agree to respect and defend eachother statements in public forums. PLEASE keep your vendetta away from public forums, for the love of God: it doesn't benefit the renegade community AT ALL, it only makes us look like clowns towards xwis and EA. I can't disagree with that. I never wanted these discussions here in the first place. They are completely counterproductive. The fact that Spoony has tried to go over my head and complain about me to EA twice now serves as the very pinnacle of embarrassment for this community. There was no reason they ever needed to know about one of the many levels of ReneDrama(tm). Quote: IMO it would be best for everyone to have a third person, trusted by both parties, with a good knowledge of cheaters, administrate this anti-cheating proposal. Whoever this could be is an open question but ain't important at all if you two can't work at above problems first. Unfortunately, there are pitiful few who can qualify, and even those could easily be fooled by someone with a little intelligence and planning. However, the proposal itself would not have sufficient impact to stop cheating. And last, but not least, I am unhappy that the proposed solution encourages server owners to stop allowing direct connect players. I have many players on my server who use GameSpy (who I previous referred to as "my GameSpy players" which made Spoony think I was claiming ALL GAMESPY PLAYERS as my own or something) and I don't want to force them to use XWIS. There is a strong WOL vs. GameSpy competitiveness in this community and encouraging servers to move to XWIS-only would be insulting to those who prefer GameSpy. Quote: 3. If you guys REALLY cannot get over all of this and if you REALLY believe there is no way to make bridges, then the only solution is to do what Crimson has said so far: stay FAR away from eachother but then you need an agreement to do this and to stop the stupid fighting/disrespecting. But if you agree to do this anyway, then you may as well work together on some projects, right? *shrug* I'd prefer keeping our discussions on a need-to-talk basis, without insults, if he is in fact capable. Just to add on here... I started the Server Owners' forum back when RenGuard just started to be developed as a solution to communicate between server owners when cheaters were found, and those cheaters were generally banned from most of the big servers in the community within 24 hours or less. This isn't exactly a "new" idea. It's just a change of the existing idea where, instead of server owners deciding who to ban/not ban from their servers, they are expected to trust one person to decide for them. I have already presented a better solution in another thread... all of which was ALREADY IN PROGRESS before this "proposal" (which, let's be fair here, is the exact same proposal someone else came up with and posted here, with the added "let me run it" tacked on) came to me.
Just about the proposal itself. I think there's a misunderstanding in the purpose of this proposal. The proposal, IMO, ain't a way of banning all cheats or a way to replace renguard (quite impossible to do). It's a way to stop people who cheat just to ruin other people's fun/game. I'm talking about the f1n ren cheaters, who just get in there until they're banned. About pretty obvious cheaters who just want to cheat, wait until they get banned from a serevr, then go on another one and maybe just don't do it on 2 servers which they play on regulary. How aret hey punished? Not. A xwis ban would punish them. As to the gamespy-WOL issue: this is the serevr owner's choice. I don't think people who run wolspy now won't stop running it once this gets released. And even if they do, this should be their choice IMO. Just like renguard it is an option that serevr owners could choose, but if i'm not mistaking they already do: some cheaters have already been xwis banned and can still play on gamespy.
Also if this was put in to effect, hopefully the cheaters IP would be posted following an XWIS ban and a list would be compiled of PROVEN cheaters, allowing individual servers to IP ban them - IP banning as I understand it is the most efficient way of stopping people using the latest cheats. A central database of that information in an organised format would surely be useful.
Yes, and something like that is already in the planning stages... but the server owners are VERY concerned that they want control over who can and can't play in their servers. Even I have struggled to find a solution that bridges the gap.
Just a few random thoughts: 1. Banning cheaters from XWIS is useless. Honestly most people that I have personally caught cheating were not connected from XWIS, and using names like "LOL I Hax". 2. There is definitely a *current* problem with people using RG bypasses. BHS is working hard on getting RG 1.04 out which will stop all of the current bypasses and also close up other vulnerabiliies (and lots of other things like new features and compatibility with win2k and 64bit systems). 3. Server-side cheat detection is definitely a plus. While server side cheat detection cannot do everything RenGuard can, I think its definitely the way to go. This is one of the reasons that BHS is coordinating with EA on getting access to the FDS source code so that we can release an FDS that has enhanced anti-cheat capabilities and other bug fixes. Some folks like Whitedragon and BI are already testing server-side cheat detection via scripts.dll mods. 4. BHS is working on a fix for the FDS that will allow true cdkey banning. This combined with an IP ban should make it easier for server owners to ban people and keep them gone. 5. I believe Spoonys proposal (of banning cheaters from XWIS) is, how do you say...he means well and its a good idea, but as I noted in #1, it just will not be effective, since they can just direct connect, or come from gamespy, etc. I havn't actually talked to Olaf about the XWIS banning protocols, but I was under the impression that XWIS bans were more for people who were abusing XWIS itself (page flooding, loading bots, etc). I dont know where all this talk of "spoony should be made an XWIS admin so that he can ban people because Crimson isn't doing her job" came from. Like I said Crimson and/or strike-team could place an xwis ban on every known cheater, and it would make little to no difference in stoping the current cheating in renegade, because most of the cheaters already connect via Gamespy or direct connnect (or, if they don't know, they would once they were banned). 6. The Renegade community of players is "too small" to ban everyone who has ever done anything wrong. You would be surprised how many people load a cheat just to see how it works, or just to test it, or to try and counter another cheater. I think the best anti-cheat mechanism is to simply BLOCK them from cheating - make their cheats not work. This is pretty much the goal of RenGuard. If they have cheats or modified files, they simply cannot play on RG-protected servers. The only people we actually ban from RenGuard are people who attack RenGuard itself, (usually people caught testing or creating a bypass). I've noticed that BI's server-side anti-cheat works in a similar manner...instead of detecting that someone is cheating and kicking the player, it detects that they are doing more damage than they should and just *ignores* the extra damage, thus nullifying their cheat. This is a much better way to stop cheating - make the cheats simply not work, no ban lists to manage, no "my brother/friend/neighbor/dog did it" excuses, etc. Of course it is still up to server owners if they want to ban someone, which is why BHS is working on the cdkey ban fix. Thats it...sorry for the randomness, like I said, just thinking out loud.
Just some extra info: 5. "Xwis site" All players should now have the message that cheating is not allowed on XWIS. To help stamp out cheating on the server bans have now been increased as follows : 1st time caught cheating : warning and 16 Days server ban If a player is caught again they will get a final warning and a 32 day ban from the server If they are caught a 3rd time they will be permanently banned from XWIS. No second chances will be given for players permanently banned so we recommend that anyone that has cheated in the past get rid of any trainers on their PC and play fair. Fair play makes the server fun for everyone, so make sure you do your part and do not cheat. Good luck and have fun everyone. It would just actually be doing what they say they do. 6. BI's anti-cheat system also bans players after it detected. So yes: it blocks, but also bans.
Have what you call "RGlite" present the option of unbanning people. (or, more accurately, ask for confirmation of the ban IE: PLayer XXX was caught and banned for "FR" in "Noobstories" Ban? etc) Serial banning will Pwn. (please finish this) <3 BI's SSAC. That needs a better name... EA: We -need- the source code! Couple of ideas and comments. can we have less ReneDrama (tm) please? (BHS should make it a legally registered trademark lol)
MaidenTy1 wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 07:46 Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 19:50 I'm sure he wants the names and IPs of SS so they can ban him, too. He goes by JohnDoe on here. Names he commonly plays by (as far as clanwars goes) H2Hitler JohnDoe JohnDough IP: Not helping you on this one. JohnDoeth: ( 75.20.213.67 (29/12/06) ) I DO help banning cheaters
Blazer wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 13:54 Just a few random thoughts: 1. Banning cheaters from XWIS is useless. Honestly most people that I have personally caught cheating were not connected from XWIS, and using names like "LOL I Hax". If I would know that XWIS is rather cheat free I am sure we would setup the server to only allow XWIS players. Server owners may choose what they want. Want the GSA players too? Ok, but then you might get more cheaters. thats your own choise then. Quote: 2. There is definitely a *current* problem with people using RG bypasses. BHS is working hard on getting RG 1.04 out which will stop all of the current bypasses and also close up other vulnerabiliies (and lots of other things like new features and compatibility with win2k and 64bit systems). 3. Server-side cheat detection is definitely a plus. While server side cheat detection cannot do everything RenGuard can, I think its definitely the way to go. This is one of the reasons that BHS is coordinating with EA on getting access to the FDS source code so that we can release an FDS that has enhanced anti-cheat capabilities and other bug fixes. Some folks like Whitedragon and BI are already testing server-side cheat detection via scripts.dll mods. You don't need the source code for that specifically, but it would be rahter usefull for fixing other stuff. Our serverside antichiet, BIATCH, is currently running on BlackIntel1 BlackIntel2 and TheKOSs2/BlackIntel3 and just on BI1 and BI2 it has detected about 125 cheaters since we started testing. Quote: 4. BHS is working on a fix for the FDS that will allow true cdkey banning. This combined with an IP ban should make it easier for server owners to ban people and keep them gone. I'm sure that should be done by now as from what I've seen it isnt that hard (for StealthEye that is) and I expect that SK knows a thing or 2 about renegade so... Quote: 5. I believe Spoonys proposal (of banning cheaters from XWIS) is, how do you say...he means well and its a good idea, but as I noted in #1, it just will not be effective, since they can just direct connect, or come from gamespy, etc. I havn't actually talked to Olaf about the XWIS banning protocols, but I was under the impression that XWIS bans were more for people who were abusing XWIS itself (page flooding, loading bots, etc). I dont know where all this talk of "spoony should be made an XWIS admin so that he can ban people because Crimson isn't doing her job" came from. Like I said Crimson and/or strike-team could place an xwis ban on every known cheater, and it would make little to no difference in stoping the current cheating in renegade, because most of the cheaters already connect via Gamespy or direct connnect (or, if they don't know, they would once they were banned). You can block direct connect if you want to... Quote: 6. The Renegade community of players is "too small" to ban everyone who has ever done anything wrong. You would be surprised how many people load a cheat just to see how it works, or just to test it, or to try and counter another cheater. I think the best anti-cheat mechanism is to simply BLOCK them from cheating - make their cheats not work. This is pretty much the goal of RenGuard. If they have cheats or modified files, they simply cannot play on RG-protected servers. The only people we actually ban from RenGuard are people who attack RenGuard itself, (usually people caught testing or creating a bypass). I've noticed that BI's server-side anti-cheat works in a similar manner...instead of detecting that someone is cheating and kicking the player, it detects that they are doing more damage than they should and just *ignores* the extra damage, thus nullifying their cheat. This is a much better way to stop cheating - make the cheats simply not work, no ban lists to manage, no "my brother/friend/neighbor/dog did it" excuses, etc. Of course it is still up to server owners if they want to ban someone, which is why BHS is working on the cdkey ban fix. Thats it...sorry for the randomness, like I said, just thinking out loud. There are plenty of places to just test a cheat without bothering other ppl so that shouldn't be an excuse. You can always use lan mode or just try it with some friends.
Goztow wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 08:45 Just some extra info: 5. "Xwis site" All players should now have the message that cheating is not allowed on XWIS. To help stamp out cheating on the server bans have now been increased as follows : 1st time caught cheating : warning and 16 Days server ban If a player is caught again they will get a final warning and a 32 day ban from the server If they are caught a 3rd time they will be permanently banned from XWIS. No second chances will be given for players permanently banned so we recommend that anyone that has cheated in the past get rid of any trainers on their PC and play fair. Fair play makes the server fun for everyone, so make sure you do your part and do not cheat. Good luck and have fun everyone. It would just actually be doing what they say they do. Strike-Team has a strict banning policy for *other* games that are hosted on XWIS, and it is effective, because when you ban someone from XWIS, they simply cannot rejoin Red Alert, etc servers anymore. This is not the case with Renegade...if you ban someone from XWIS, they can easily direct connect or come from Gamespy, so the ban is ineffective, as pretty much anyone who has the ability to find a cheat and install it, also knows that you can connect to a renegade server multiple ways.
fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 02:41 As many of the folks at clanwars.cc have found out recently: --Two convicted cheaters are being allowed to return to the league --Someone who cheated on a public server under Crimson's name is not being banned on clanwars.cc and is instead getting a forum ban for one month WOW, I can't believe clanwars.cc allows cheaters to play in there tournaments.
Just ignore flooded, he has no fucking idea what he's talking about. You're REALLY starting to drag this out and quite frankly none of you should care about it.
Crimson wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 05:30 If anyone wants to read how Spoony speaks to me in private while calling them "olive branches" aka "peace offerings"... here you go: http://www.n00bstories.com/forums/index.php?t=msg&goto=90757&#msg_90757 seems like a nice guy to me... i dont see anything offensive in there.
Blazer wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 21:11 Goztow wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 08:45 Just some extra info: 5. "Xwis site" All players should now have the message that cheating is not allowed on XWIS. To help stamp out cheating on the server bans have now been increased as follows : 1st time caught cheating : warning and 16 Days server ban If a player is caught again they will get a final warning and a 32 day ban from the server If they are caught a 3rd time they will be permanently banned from XWIS. No second chances will be given for players permanently banned so we recommend that anyone that has cheated in the past get rid of any trainers on their PC and play fair. Fair play makes the server fun for everyone, so make sure you do your part and do not cheat. Good luck and have fun everyone. It would just actually be doing what they say they do. Strike-Team has a strict banning policy for *other* games that are hosted on XWIS, and it is effective, because when you ban someone from XWIS, they simply cannot rejoin Red Alert, etc servers anymore. This is not the case with Renegade...if you ban someone from XWIS, they can easily direct connect or come from Gamespy, so the ban is ineffective, as pretty much anyone who has the ability to find a cheat and install it, also knows that you can connect to a renegade server multiple ways. I dont like it when ppl wont read my posts... You CAN block DC and GSA if you wanted, so that isnt an excuse for not doing it.
I'll show some of them to you then: Quote: instead of banning everyone for telling the truth of something you don't want the community to know about Lying. Quote: Now, I know what you're gonna say here about the clan ladder you have in the pipeline, but there are empty promises and excuses, and then there are results. Accusing anyone related to the project of lying. Quote: Another thing is a viable, unbiased and easily accessible anti-cheat policy. Again, before you mention Renguard 1.04, re-read my earlier statement about the difference between empty promises and results. Accusing the Renguard team of lying and of being incompetent. Quote: suspect I know what you're thinking upon reading that last sentence: that you'll do it. There are several reasons why that is not a good solution. (Paragraph shortened for space) Accusing Crimson of being incompetent. Quote: Once again... there are promises, and there are results. And if some of your projects take over a year before you can show some tangible results to the community, then it's plain you have enough on your plate as it is. Accusing BHS of lying and of being incompetent.
How do you think it would look to a GSA player if we said "welp, the best way to block cheaters is to block them from XWIS, so all server owners who want to have cheaters unable to join should move strictly to XWIS." The solution presented also does not solve the problem where server owners want a say in who is banned from their servers. Heck, I know of at least 1 server (xphaze) that is RUN by a proven cheater. As someone who has a lot of regular players through my WOLspy-provided listing on GameSpy, I would not want to drop my GSA support. As I've mentioned more than once before, OTHER SOLUTIONS ARE IN THE WORKS. Other solutions which are MUCH more effective and do not require server owners to ditch GameSpy. It's not that this idea is bad -- it's that there are other ideas which are BETTER.
Crimson wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 21:48 How do you think it would look to a GSA player if we said "welp, the best way to block cheaters is to block them from XWIS, so all server owners who want to have cheaters unable to join should move strictly to XWIS." The solution presented also does not solve the problem where server owners want a say in who is banned from their servers. Heck, I know of at least 1 server (xphaze) that is RUN by a proven cheater. As someone who has a lot of regular players through my WOLspy-provided listing on GameSpy, I would not want to drop my GSA support. As I've mentioned more than once before, OTHER SOLUTIONS ARE IN THE WORKS. Other solutions which are MUCH more effective and do not require server owners to ditch GameSpy. It's not that this idea is bad -- it's that there are other ideas which are BETTER. I said IF you want to block GSA and DC then you could do it, if you do like GSA and DC players then you could not block it. But that is NOT a reason to leave servers that do NOT want GSA or DC'ing players without a POSSIBLE protection against cheaters. I know you wont liek this because your server (and the one that remain on GSA) will be likely to get more cheaters to them. BUT it would help the pure XWIS servers. Hell, if you dont want to go to the problems of banning or not I would like to moderate the banning, and setup a jury for that. And we currently have 2 anticheater projects running one that is slightly revealed by now and the other is far from completion, but would also help against cheaters.