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C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
Coming soon -- I bet you never thought you'd see this
I was hoping to be a little farther along on this project before I announced it publicly, however, I wanted to do it before I left for LA, but I am pretty busy today getting ready for the trip. So, I'll just tell you now. The ladder is coming back! Silent Kane has written a LadderServ which will eventually be running on XWIS. He's storing the data in a database, which I have used to create the actual rankings and a few pages of information. The ladder will eventually be displayed on RenegadeCommunity.com in colors more suitable there, but until that time, you can view the work-in-progress at our beta site: http://renladder.blackhand-studios.net Planned features: - Ladder reporting in-game so we're not all "recruits" anymore - A page that lists all the games stored for a particular server - A page that lists all the players in a particular game and how they did. - More statistical information on the player page such as avg ladder/game, hit/miss ratio... I have a LOT of data available to me, so please suggest any other data you'd like to see. I love putting together complex SQL queries and the database structure I designed is ready for lots of different number crunching. While XWIS will host Silent Kane's LadderServ application, the website display of data will remain under our control and can be changed and updated at any time. Please spread the word!
Re: Coming soon -- I bet you never thought you'd see this
I forgot to mention this as well: I want to extend a HUGE thank you to all the server owners who have directed their servers to point at our test LadderServ for the past few weeks. I'm thrilled with all the support -- it's been very encouraging. As you can see, we have had 60 servers send results to the ladder. I also forgot to mention that currently, the Renegade FDS only sends the first 10 characters of each player's name. So, players who join a WOL server over WOLSpy who have long names will see them truncated. Silent Kane created a fix for that, along with a fix for the map which is currently sent to the ladder (the map changes before the ladder data goes out, so the NEXT map is reported instead of the current one). He will be releasing these fixes shortly, once he's done with everything he wanted to include. He's also having trouble with his internet connectivity at the moment.
I forgot to mention..maybe i'm having ablonde moment or is this actually working now?
If you play on a server that's participating in the beta, then yes, it's working. Silent Kane fixed a bug on November 28th that was causing random crashing and it's been running since then with absolutely no crashing or memory leaks.
Does this have anything to do with XWIS restarting last night? I noticed that some people had ranks last night when I checked my buddy list, I'm glad the ladder's finally coming back.
Liek <3 Can't wait for release.
I'm leaving for LA tomorrow afternoon... is that what you're asking?
Yeah, but never mind. The ladder... \m/
Yep, my serv is already connected, lets get this live
I also wanted to add that I'm also planning to add some sort of XML data once I find out what people might be interested in using it for. I do not want people doing scraper apps.
Crimson wrote on Sat, 09 December 2006 20:26 I do not want people doing scraper apps. Why?
Because they're retarded when I can provide a proper interface like XML.
Oh, I thought you meant you didn't want people scraping the XML output.
Is there a way so that confirmed cheaters can be removed from the ladder? Back in the Westwood day the top 20 people were all hackers, it was rather annoying that you could never, well without cheating yourself, get to be #1! That dragon guard that is in work, possible it can send a list of cheaters to the ladder thing?
The top 20 were definitely not all cheaters. DethVib/Vibranium won the ladder a few times and he did not cheat, yet still never recieved his prize. Most people did not know how to cheat or that cheating was possible for Renegade while WS was still around anyway.
What were the first cheats anyway? I've always thought that FR+BH bundle with the pictures of the n00bstories crowd started it all,,,
The first cheats were big heads and wallhacks, with the Final Renegade discoveries with objects.ddb soon after.
This is so cool that it deserves a bump.
I'm very happy renegadecommunity will be hosting the ladder. It should get some people that usually are less intrested by community business, to at least read the news headlines on it when they want to check their rank .
I haven't played in months, but nicely done. I wouldn't care if it's only for the point whores, it's still fun to see stats.
What about clan support? don't hear anything so I assume this is just personal ranks.
When will this go live? Plus i'd prefer RG to the clan support.
Acey#GW wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 00:41 When will this go live? I think the answer will be "when it's done". Don't forget: the tricky part comes now -> getting the Xwis admins to make it work in the game...
The clan ladder is our next goal, at least as far as ladders are concerned.
Goztow wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 00:47 Acey#GW wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 00:41 When will this go live? I think the answer will be "when it's done". Don't forget: the tricky part comes now -> getting the Xwis admins to make it work in the game... That's actually not that big a deal. All that has to be done is to point servserv to wherever the ladder ends up being hosted, and it's done. It will go live once we change a few features as far as how the data is stored in the database and the web interface integrated into RenegadeCommunity.com.
So once the final version is completed all servers will be included?
i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 17:16 So once the final version is completed all servers will be included? Yes.
can't believe I missed this post this is just freaking awesome Good job BHS
Renx wrote on Sun, 10 December 2006 00:57 The top 20 were definitely not all cheaters. DethVib/Vibranium won the ladder a few times and he did not cheat, yet still never recieved his prize. Most people did not know how to cheat or that cheating was possible for Renegade while WS was still around anyway. He was kind off my image at the time because he was the first dutch player to win the Ren ladder till he congratzed me on winning it He told me he played on Dethvib because he lost his Pwd for Vibranium but I haven't seen him since a while not even after the XWIS transition..
OK, so I've been hearing "people hate the ladder because..." and I haven't seen a whiff of it on here. I can't fix the ladder if you don't tell me what's wrong with it, DUH!!!!!
Good question Crimson, come on guys what is wrong with a new ladder?? Off course pointwhores (like me ) will be in the top in such a ladder. But so what, I can remember players like Edwardckw he was one of my favourite players to play with, he was a very skilled player not a pointwhore and still ended high up on the ladder all the time. Does a ladder make Renegade less fun to play?
Cool about time this got up and working, well done SK.
Crimson wrote on Sun, 10 December 2006 11:03 The first cheats were big heads and wallhacks, with the Final Renegade discoveries with objects.ddb soon after. i remember when that all kicked off.. the memories Crimson how will the ladder calculate ranking points? The original WOL one was seriously flawed i remember back in to RenEvo chat( a good few years ago) SK or Scorpio cannot remember who had a fantastic formula which sounded great.
A lot of formulas sound great until they're actually in practice. Generating a good formula is something that's going to require people from various parts of the community, and a LOT of testing. It's also considered Phase 2 of the ladder project which won't be in progress until after the clan ladder is brought back.
First I would like to say it is nice to see the ladder functioning again. Good job. Then let me list what is wrong with it currently imo - Other game modes make it unbalanced. On coop for example, you can only go up in ladder (you will always win). - The fact that it does not count the stats when the game is too short/you are not ingame long enough. If you are just too long in game, you will go down a lot, when you won a very short game the ladder will not even be affected. - If you are in game shorter then someone else and you have made more points then him, you can end up lower on the ladder. I guess the points should be divided by the ingame time or something. - The fact that it is based on the sum of the ladder points means that if you play a lot you will get a better position than when you do not. - Friendly kills are not correct, it shows that I have killed friendlies, but I'm 100% sure that I have not been on servers which allow that, and I'm 100% sure that I did not get any messages about killing friendlies... I think something like totalscore / ingametime would work, filtering out ladder points gained longer than x days/weeks and only adding you to the ladder when you have played more than y games. Maybe it would be good to somehow compare the scores to the other players' ranks and scores in the server, but I have no clear idea of a proper formula for that.
I think the friendly kills include the number of times you kill yourself...
bump Old ladder link still working?
danpaul88 wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 17:02 I think the friendly kills include the number of times you kill yourself... That's exactly the reason. JPNOD: I'm pretty sure I've seen DethVib playing within the last year or so. It might have been just before the transition, he was playing again for a few weeks then he just disappeared again.
bumping this topic to see if crimson has anymore updates about it...
Not at the moment. Silent Kane is busy with RenGuard 1.04 development so finishing this project is on hold.
I recently noticed that players which had played a lot of coop/mission maps literally made jumps on the ladder, it's even so bad that one of them managed to get to #1 now, even though he was told yesterday that gaining so much ladder through coop/mission maps is lame. Just shows how determined he was to get to #1, the end justifies the means eh? I just find it to be unfair to the players who play normal games all the time. The ladder itself might not mean much to most players, but I can imagine it means something to the 5 or so players at the very top. If something were to be done about it, it should be done before the month is over.
So according to you co-op and mission maps are not normal? That's stupid.
if not normal means retarded, then I would agree. Not that I care about the ladder anyways because it's not like it ever shows a true depiction of someone being a good player. (I remember way back when, when the old WOL ladder was still up and some guy who was ranked two was saying he was better than I was)
Merovingian wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 06:52 So according to you co-op and mission maps are not normal? That's stupid. If you are going to have a ladder based on the amount of ladderpoints each player earns during games, then no, coop and mission maps are not normal. How are they normal when you can't lose any ladder points during those games but only gain tons?
The ladder is a little ridiculous, it rewards pointwhores in large servers and people playing co-op. It's irrelevant as a measure of skill and I think most people have taken no notice of it, but if people are playing more because of the ladder then that's all good. Seems that the ladder should be based around average performance per game if that is possible, linked to points, win ratio and possibly kills, but definately not k/d.
k/d is also important, I wouldnt liek to see some1 with 10k points and 1 kill/800 deaths... Anyway, I think the most important part of all this would be to get it live on xwis fast so everyone who still plays (and maybe isnt on these forums) notices and starts doing something about thier ranks
trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 16:10 k/d is also important, I wouldnt liek to see some1 with 10k points and 1 kill/800 deaths... Anyway, I think the most important part of all this would be to get it live on xwis fast so everyone who still plays (and maybe isnt on these forums) notices and starts doing something about thier ranks k/d is irrelevant, people who are prepared to suicide when needed or go out kamikaze style will be more use to the team than some retarded sniper hiding from any hint of danger to protect the all important kd. Points/Base Destruction win games it's as simple as that and people should be playing to win rather than trying to boost personal statistics.
Thats true about the k/d thing, but it still does mean something. Maybe not a whole lot but I usually donate ingame to people who ask or new with a 1/1 or + k/d just so I know im not wasting it. Anyway, in the formula, im thinking they could tone down the k/d% to like 25% of the actual total rank, and this would get players who only play sniping (or do alot of it) also get a decent rank if their good, instead of always being in the bottom
So, what's going on with this project? Has it just been added to the giant pile of stuff for Renegade people say they are going to do, and then don't?
Canadacdn wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 17:29 So, what's going on with this project? Has it just been added to the giant pile of stuff for Renegade people say they are going to do, and then don't? yes
Canadacdn wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 10:29 So, what's going on with this project? Has it just been added to the giant pile of stuff for Renegade people say they are going to do, and then don't? No. You guys are hilarious. We work on the ladder and you say "work on RenGuard instead". So we work on RenGuard and now I get this? Come on, people! Silent Kane is the one who needs to finish the ladder but all of his free time and resources are being spent working on RenGuard 1.04's backend network. We do intend to finish this project and make it live, but RenGuard comes first. As far as making the ladder a better indicator of skill, such a project is going to be a huge undertaking. I intend to form a team of the most knowledgable members of the community to come up with the ultimate formula, and balance it over time. But, I have to decide whether we're going to get the clan ladder up first or not.
Not, the individ ladder should be first priority over clan, mostly because more players play on that ladder vs the clan ladder. This is not to say but the clan ladder on the back burner, just I think most average players would want the indi ladder up first
Crimson wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 13:46 But, I have to decide whether we're going to get the clan ladder up first or not. So, does this mean that you guys are gonna fix the clan pages on Renegade? That would rock.
Crimson wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 14:46 Canadacdn wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 10:29 So, what's going on with this project? Has it just been added to the giant pile of stuff for Renegade people say they are going to do, and then don't? No. You guys are hilarious. We work on the ladder and you say "work on RenGuard instead". So we work on RenGuard and now I get this? Come on, people! Silent Kane is the one who needs to finish the ladder but all of his free time and resources are being spent working on RenGuard 1.04's backend network. We do intend to finish this project and make it live, but RenGuard comes first. As far as making the ladder a better indicator of skill, such a project is going to be a huge undertaking. I intend to form a team of the most knowledgable members of the community to come up with the ultimate formula, and balance it over time. But, I have to decide whether we're going to get the clan ladder up first or not. I would really like to be a part of that whenever the time comes around for that.
Well done
RG > Ladders, we have a working clan ladder and personal ranks mean jack - this community NEEDS the new RG. Will be nice to see what comes of this after the release of 1.04
Looking forward to it. Good Work
My brother had some better formula ideas for the ladder, let me find them....
Dethdeath wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 05:26 I recently noticed that players which had played a lot of coop/mission maps literally made jumps on the ladder, it's even so bad that one of them managed to get to #1 now, even though he was told yesterday that gaining so much ladder through coop/mission maps is lame. Just shows how determined he was to get to #1, the end justifies the means eh? I just find it to be unfair to the players who play normal games all the time. The ladder itself might not mean much to most players, but I can imagine it means something to the 5 or so players at the very top. If something were to be done about it, it should be done before the month is over. I definatly noticed the other day that one player was definatly abusing the way certain servers give out ladder points to reach the #1 spot on the ladder. After checking his games played history it confirmed what I had thought he was doing. I think what is currently going on is a good case study of what is wrong with the current ladder schema and gives us reason to ensure that people taking such actions should not be rewarded in the future when a new schema is created and properly balanced.
I wanna bet some servers will soon have an auto announcement saying "come play here for loads of ladder points!".
this was the problem when wilo first started testing these co-op maps, just before the original ladder went down. Unless there is some way to force co-op servers to be non laddered or work out a ladder forumla that won't be affected by their results then the individual ranks will always be screwed.
I can exempt certain host names from counting towards the ladder without much difficulty.
Yeah but what if suddenly allot more servers get co-op and your away, allot of people will get the advantage..
If I exempt the server, it becomes retroactive for previous results as well. All that really matters is the end of the month.
Ah, ok. But will this only work if you exempt certain host names? Maybe you should block out all servers with the "Co-Op, coop, etc." in the server name.. Or make it read it somehow..
The names aren't sent to the ladder server.
I really hope this new rg is almost done. Its really annoying getting banned when I decide to play on Jelly/N00bstories while using rg
What about map names? Wouldn't it be better to allow only certain map names to count for the ladder?
Yes, and crimson confirmed it is posisble, so I guess she's working on it. And Im ot sure, but for relatively simple DB queries, you dont need SK do you Crimson? then you could just make a forumula that uses the current info to produce a new style ladder.
Cpo64 wrote on Fri, 02 February 2007 02:39 What about map names? Wouldn't it be better to allow only certain map names to count for the ladder? Ah, I agree, that would be perfect, but it wouldn't necessarily block all mods. Some people like to mod scripts and objects, so original maps can be altered, but they can always block the mission maps.
I have modified the link for a player's name on the online page to go to the beta ladder: http://www.xwis.info/info/index.php?server=rg When the beta clan ladder is up, I'll add it in too. Someone lemme know please XML feed for the online page coming soon
Nice, great to see ST is still involved, the thing is, this could be even better if a simple search box was added on to the page, and maybe the ability for a player/server/hostname to be highlighted for use of server admins on sites and etc, just a suggestion
Nice Work there, Crimson and Silent Kane. Brings back old memories. I remember edwarckw and i0ncl0ud and Trojanm4n,etc. Also, Renstation was the best server back then.
soory luv2, but i am currently in state of reconfiguring my comp and need to reinstall, so ican't really give much feedback until i actually play it on this weekend.
That wasn't what I ment. No need to apologise.