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Israel, Lebanon, and of course... Hezbollah
After a brief search on these forums, I've come to the conclusion that there's not a thread on this topic (there is one, but it was actually off-topic). So, I'd like to (re)ignite this topic. I find it relatively coincidental (let alone ironic) that people on this forums were discussing Israel, Lebanon, and Hezbollah (although it was off-topic) just weeks before this recent war started on July 12. Please keep it civil with no derrogatory remarks: I'm sure there's fanatics on both sides (my own fanatacism being that of favoring Israel, which I hope you'll understand after reading the rest of this post), but that's not a reason to insult each other or their beliefs. I would also love to have FMhalo join in on this, since he himself is apparently from Lebanon and could probably clear up some misconceptions regarding Lebanon and Hezbollah. ... What I don't understand is why the rest of the world can't see the fact that Hezbollah is using civilians as pawns in a political jihad. Sure, Hezbollah might have financed civilian schools, libraries, markets, whatever... but was it really Hezbollah that had financed that, or was it Iran through that terrorist organization (if you think Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, please do tell why)? While you think about that, remember that ultimately Hezbollah is using Lebanese public opinion to leverage acts of terrorism against Israel as "legitimate". No matter what the news says, I'm also frankly surprised at the wording of what immediately sparked this conflict: Quote: ...the capture of two Israeli soldiers... Why haven't they labelled that as an abduction? It is much more appropriate! In fact a lot of news agencies had already gone from calling the "suicide bombers" a much more insultive name of "suicide murderers" and the like. So why not do the same for the spark of this now-three-weeks-long war? The international community is retarded. Israel has, during the past years, been repeatedly told to back off and Israel repeatedly did so. Israel was not the aggressor in this war, and you can't expect an "immediate" ceasefire for tensions that have been building for years, literally. During the beginning of this war, Israel had dropped leaflets telling all civilians to flee for their lives. I believe that anyone left in the region is one of three things: A Hezbollah fighter Forced to stay against their will by Hezbollah Or lastly: stupid, retarded, or similar. If you're neither fighting the Israelis nor helping those that do, then there's really no reason to be there until the fighting is over. If you are fighting the Israelis (or more to the point) or supporting those that do, then you could get killed, and it will only not be your fault if Hezbollah has forced you to stay there or kill you themselves. I don't understand why international communities cannot seem to see this. And to touch on what I said at the beginning of this paragraph ("the international community is retarded"): if the same thing had happened to any of the nations that are unsupportive (to say the least) of Israel, I would wholeheartedly support them to take the exact same action that Israel is taking against Hezbollah, and I would in fact be confused if they didn't. As a matter of fact, I had been halfheartedly watching the Israeli news during the past six months or so, and had been perplexed as to why Israel hadn't taken any action. ... FMhalo wrote on Sun, 30 April 2006 20:27 Isreal is still occupying the "Shebaa Farms border area". They did not completely withdraw and if it wasnt for Hezbollah Lebanon would be part of Isreal. Please, do tell me where Israel has started the fight (any fight). To the best of my knowledge, Israel has started none. I don't know whether or not Israel would have annexed Lebanon if it was given the chance, but to the best of my knowledge, Israel has always been the defender. Sure, they've occupied Lebanese lands, but if you are attacked by someone, you have every right to call the police to have them go to their house. If there's no police, then what would you do when they hide in their home? With regards to that, when Hezbollah was created, it was to fight the Israeli occupation of Lebanon (which, I'll point out, was a response to a 1982 assasination attempt on an Israeli embassador and artillery attacks on Israelis). While (to the best of my knowledge) that occupation has never totally ended, neither has the Hezbollan (is that the correct spelling of Hezbollah as an adjective?) activities against Israel when Israel did back off as required by a U.N. mandate. Obviously, if Israel was cooperating with the U.N. as far as pulling out of Lebanon before this recent conflict, then that would have been the proper way of getting Israel out of your Shebba Farms border (and thus, completely out of Lebanon)... not continuing to fight. And what's more is that if this was truly a fight about the Shebaa Farms, then Hezbollah should have chosen that place to conduct their raid against Israel, not within the internationally-recognized Israeli border. Israel has repeatedly shown cooperation with the U.N., whereas Hezbollah has not. The U.N. had told Hezbollah to disarm, and yet Hezbollah still has not after a year.
Re: Israel, Lebanon, and of course... Hezbollah
Israel has every right to defend itself; I just wish they'd limit the bombing of public bridges and roadways. The whole situation is quite tragic.
The whole of the middle east is occupied with complete idiots that are in constant war with eachother. So who cares what half arsed reason it is because of this time. Lets put those old nuclear warheads to good use and just level the place or let them all kill eachother, whatever comes first. Really... why can't these people just get a live instead of just letting every incident grow out into full scale war? Sorry, if this seems a little harsh but they just can't seem to be able to stop themselves killing eachother. Israel, Libanon, Iran, Iraq, Palastina are all the same in my eyes.
They can nuke each other down to beaded glass for all I care - if not for the cloud of radiation that would affect the rest of the globe. Mutual destruction seems to be what they want - if they are ever going to do it, they should just get it over with.
PackHunter wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 01:29 The whole of the middle east is occupied with complete idiots Stop. Right. There.
I think Israel is getting so much grief purely because of the figures, there are a lot more lebanese dying than Isralies from the missle attacks. But as pointed out they didn't fire first although there is a long standing history of conflict in the area, it seems to me like East meets West all in one area (Isreal representing the West-surrounded by countries with different views) Repression and Violence are just part of life in that part of the world, I just cannot understand what motivates these people on a personal level other than the obvious, he hurt me so I will hurt him mentality that has been cycling for a long long time - I don't see anything being resolved any time soon - the Lebanese will now resent Isreal more because of the huge casualties, displacement of population and civilian targets hit. Israel's citizens will in turn show their opinions following missles landing in their country. Violence breeds violence and the causes soon seem to become irrelevant (look at Northern Ireland) - what is really needed is for people to stay in their own countries, be happy with what they have and quit pissing off neighbouring countries and bringing their own alliances to the table before we see Iraq Part 2 against Syria and Iran.
xptek wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 00:42 Israel has every right to defend itself; I just wish they'd limit the bombing of public bridges and roadways. The whole situation is quite tragic. Its sorry to see that Hezbollah is using these public roadways and bridges to transport men and materials to destinations throughout Lebanon. As the Israeli objective is to stop the rocket attacks and possibly completely destroy the capacity of Hezbollah to function as an organization, public and civilian infrastructure will have to be destroyed. In Gaza they did the same thing but for the more acute reason of preventing the captured Israeli soldier of being transported further from the area. As for the Lebanese being united in support of Hezbollah...I don't think that is a huge priority for Israel at this point. I mean this is a country that took on several united Arab countries and won each time. Right now they are trying to protect their people from the Hezbollah rockets by destroying the rockets themselves and the organization firing them..what sane country wouldn't do the same? If occupation of southern Lebanon is necessary for the protection of the people of Israel...then so be it.
Hezbollah should be wiped off the face of the earth in my eyes, they should just invade the entire country and get it over and done with, kill every single last terrorist whatever, problem fixed.
Wow, well that would be good - it doesn't work like that in the real world though. Terrorists dont label themselves as such or no doubt Bush would have sent his boys out to do just that a long time ago and tbh, who is a terrorist? it's a matter of opinion.
[BBF Pirate wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 11:47]Wow, well that would be good - it doesn't work like that in the real world though. Terrorists dont label themselves as such or no doubt Bush would have sent his boys out to do just that a long time ago and tbh, who is a terrorist? it's a matter of opinion. Thats cause the world has gone pussy, I would soon clean up that country... but aslong we have left wing idiots as leaders... we never be able to fix the problem the easy way.
Is Israel justified in their current assault on Lebanon? who knows, I definitely don't condemn them for defending themselves, and hezbolla definitely needs to get the hell out of the border area and allow the Lebanese government control of defending their borders. But the extent of Israel's current carnage seems a little excessive. That said, Kanezor, I completely disagree with your view on Israel's UN cooperation. To date, they have completely ignored or defied approximately 60 UN resolutions. Most having to do with treatment of Palestinians and unlawful expansion of communities. I also disagree with your argument about those left in South Lebanon as being either "for hezbolla" or "idiots". Was this also your opinion of the 700,000 people left stranded in the path of Katrina? I'm betting that those Katrina welfare victims make more in a month than a lot of Lebanese make in a year. Do all of them even own a vehicle? You're leaving a lot of assumptions on the table as to why they are still there.
IWarriors wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 19:11 [BBF Pirate wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 11:47]Wow, well that would be good - it doesn't work like that in the real world though. Terrorists dont label themselves as such or no doubt Bush would have sent his boys out to do just that a long time ago and tbh, who is a terrorist? it's a matter of opinion. Thats cause the world has gone pussy, I would soon clean up that country... but aslong we have left wing idiots as leaders... we never be able to fix the problem the easy way. I highly doubt that.
I guess i can clear up some common misconceptions about this. Anyways back in the late 1970s a civil war broke out in Lebanon between the christians and muslims. Israel was pretty much to blame for the civil war though as they gave the sparks to get it going. Israel supposedly invaded to get rid of the PLO who fled to Lebanon. Anyways during these years Lebanon didn't really have an army so Israel invaded with ease all the way up to beirut. During this time the Israeli commited lots of war crimes: Killing families, raping women, destroying homes etc... Fierce fighting would break out between civilians and Israeli soldiers occasionally. Anyways as a result of this occupation Hezbollah was formed in i think 1982. Anyways Hezbollah eventually pushed Israel out of Lebanon in 2000. Now, Hezbollah is a result of Israeli occupation and war crimes. Well anyways before Israel left Lebanon they took many thousand civilian prisoners with them and have them locked up in Israel and doing god knows what with them. Anyways after the war Hezbollah went political. They built hospitals schools etc... but basically they helped rebuild Lebanon but i have to say nobody built as much as hariri did. Anyways after Israel left Lebanon they still occupied the sheba farm area. There was really no ceasefire tbh, Israeli drones and jetfighters would violate our airspace daily and Hezbollah was constantly trying to negotiate the release of the prisoners for 6 years. I do believe there was a little prisoner swap in 2004 but i can't really remember. Other then Israeli soldiers crossing the border and getting into scuffles with hezbollah everything was good. Anyways i like to press strongly at the fact that hezbollah is a result of israeli war crimes. Almost ALL od\f it's fighters had their families killed by israeli forces, mohers and sisters raped etc... Anyways Hezbollah is pretty much less than a 1000 fighters with only a few thousands reserves. It is a maricle they are keeping 10000 israeli soldiers from invading. The civilian shield thing imo is a load of bull since i talked to family in Lebanon. They even bombed my uncle's gas station lol... Anyways the civilians do not flee because the Lebanese people put dignity first. Our people are not cowards and do not fear the israeli army, tbh at this point the civilians probably are waiting for a major ground invasion to move up so they can get in the fighting. Believe it or not almost every single civilian house keeps weapons such as rpgs, ak47s etc... incase of a israeli invasion. Most of these weapons are soviet erra though but the civilians have access to it. Anyways if anybody else wants to ask anything else don't hesitate to ask. Flaming will be ignored of course as it isn't productive. edit: If anybody wonders where the civilians would get these kind of weapons it is all smuggled from Syria. From what i was told by uncles and stuff they used to smuggle this stuff through an underground tunnel that went from Syria to Lebanon. Civilians would also pick up weapons off the streets as it was very common to see weapons lying around in those days. My grandpa has many stories from the war tbh, he used to smuggle arms from Syria to Lebanon and sell it to civilians in the black market.
I don't know what the media in the states show etc... i'll be assuming you know israel is using chemical weapons, cluster munitions on civilian populations. Nasrallah said: "The only way to stop rocket attacks was to stop the air raids and attacks on the civilians of Lebanon". He has welcomed the IDF to settle any dispute man to man on the southern Lebanon border leaving civlians out of it. I do feel sorry for the 500000 jews living in bomb shelters (if that number hasn't gone up) and all the jews who have fled. It is sad how a whole state of israel must suffer from the zionest regime. If israel wanted to wipe out hezbollah (which it has tried and failed miserably in the past and now) they would listen to nasrallah's demands and settle it on the southern border this way civilians in both sides wouldn't suffer. Tel aviv is threatened to be hit if central beirut is hit (which it hasn't yet, the suburbs aren't considered beirut). If the zionist government decides to hit it then they just endangered a whole lot more civilians. The point im trying to make here is suffering isn't necessary on both sides. Israel knows the rocket attacks stop when they stop bombing lebanese cities, towns, and civilians.
Sounds like someone's been watching too much Communist News Network.
FMHalo, the only problem with the rocket attacks, in my opinion, is that they are completely and totally worthless. In the last two weeks, Hezbollah has fired some 4,000 rockets in to Israel; I think 6-10 of them have actually hit anything other than a field. If Hezbollah is trying to use this as levarage for a cease fire, I don't think Israel considers the rockets anything more than a fly in their soup. Now, if they can actually make them a little more precise, and start causing real havoc in Israel, then they may have a bargaining chip.
Not really... considering that Hezbollah fired the first shot, they're in no position to start playing the victim and asking for peace. "Oh, we won't attack you if yous top attacking us!" Bullshit. Those words come from the mouth of a man who attacks civilians intentionally as a matter of policy. Hezbollah is at fault, not Israel. The casualty count in Lebanon is as high as it is only because Hezbollah continues to use Lebanese civilians as meat-shields to protect their own sorry asses from the overwhelmingly superior and highly professional IDF. The moment they stop doing that, there will be no further civilian deaths in Lebanon- but it isn't likely to happen, because only the presence of civilians around their bunkers and launch sites prevents their untimely demise. A cease-fire will only be possible once Hezbollah ceases its attacks on Israel's civilians- deliberate attcks on civilians, not accidental deaths caused by the destruction of legitimate military targets. When the time comes for terms to be set, it will be Israel setting the terms, not Hezbollah, and not the international community. We aren't talking about a country that gives half a rat's ass about what Germany or France or Russia or China thinks of its actions- because Israel doesn't. They never have; they go in and do what they need to in order to secure their borders and defend their civilian population- and anyone who gets in the way of that objective is in for a world of hurt. Just about the only country that Israel would listen to is the US- and only then because we're their primary source of equipment and ammunition (aside from beautiful home-grown units like the Kfir and Lavi fighters, and the kick-ass Merkava tank). And you know something else? I'm damn proud that the US government isn't getting in the way of our Ally's campaign. Good allies don't interfere, they assist. Our ally is under attack from a bunch of overglorified thugs, they showed some initiative, and they're kicking ass. Good for them.
gbull wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 08:44 IWarriors wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 19:11 [BBF Pirate wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 11:47]Wow, well that would be good - it doesn't work like that in the real world though. Terrorists dont label themselves as such or no doubt Bush would have sent his boys out to do just that a long time ago and tbh, who is a terrorist? it's a matter of opinion. Thats cause the world has gone pussy, I would soon clean up that country... but aslong we have left wing idiots as leaders... we never be able to fix the problem the easy way. I highly doubt that. And what do you doubt`?
In the 1st few days of the war Israel bragged that they would finish hezbollah in less than a week. They bragged that they got 50% of the rockets. They bragged that the rocket threat would be over soon. They set their hopes high that they would advance to the latani river. They killed nasrallah a few times a day. Today we are in the 24th day of this conflict. Israel hasn't fullfilled any of it's objectives, hasn't been able to advance even a little bit into Lebanon despite having 10000 troops fighting with air support etc... Did you know that Hezbollah was only around 1000 fighters with only about 2000 or so in reserve? How is israel going to get to the latani river? I know 100% the war will end in Lebanon's and Hezbollah's terms as Lebanon just rejected the latest UN resolution as it was a joke to Lebanon's dignity. Israel had 18 years to defeat a Hezbollah who had no military capabilty and they were defeated miserably. The 2000 withdrawl was an embarrassing defeat for Israel. How many military bases and rocket launchers does a militia of a few thousand men have? Seriously... It seems that the "Khezbollah" have more military bases and rocket sites that it was more soldiers. Some of you will remain in denial right now. When 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 10 years go by of another bloody war and Israel hasn't fullfilled it's military objectives then you may finally realise that Israel is waging war on a whole nation. The "meat shield" excuse is an insult to our people. We have lived through years and years of war and we do not fear any aggressors. If Hezbollah dared to use our civilians as meat shields you will be rest assured that the civilian population would hang their heads on a post. Our civilians are armed with soviet era weapons and i assure you if Hezbollah used us as shields they wouldn't last a day. but w/e i've said all that needs to be said if people want to remain pro Israeli go right ahead. Just remember that Israel can hit so many "rocket launchers and "Khezbollah" bases" before you start to realise they are just spewing bs. The same bs they were spewing day 1 of this war.
ALL THIS GUY NEEDS TO SAY NOW IS "INFIDELS" AND "PRAISE ALLAH" AND HE'LL SOUND JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HEZBOLLAH PIECE OF SHIT
Hmh, it's very hard to pick a side in a war that's being fought thousands of kilometers away. All we know is what the media tells us, and it might be a lie, or the truth, or too one-sided view...it's nice to be able to read insightful comments like FMHalo's, who actually is involved. An average European/American citizen doesn't really know much about the history of the region....hell, it's hard enough to keep track of the basic history of your OWN country, let alone foreign ones. If I really wanted to side with either country and declare them as the ones who are right , I'd have to spend hours investigating the events and who started what and which attack is just a revenge of something that's happened earlier. I can pick a side just to feel smug, but I see no point in that. All I can say is "war is bad" and some other semi-naive truths like that, and hope things turn up right. You're outside my monkeysphere http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html
msgtpain wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 19:17 That said, Kanezor, I completely disagree with your view on Israel's UN cooperation. To date, they have completely ignored or defied approximately 60 UN resolutions. Most having to do with treatment of Palestinians and unlawful expansion of communities. I suppose that's possible. I don't claim to be an expert on world politics; it's just that from what I've seen, Israel has complied with the U.N. stuff that I know of, and that's not a lot... pretty much just the ones where the U.N. has told Israel to back off. In any case, I think it would be excellent if there were some references as to where Israel has and has not complied with U.N. resolutions/mandates/whatever. msgtpain wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 19:17 I also disagree with your argument about those left in South Lebanon as being either "for hezbolla" or "idiots". Was this also your opinion of the 700,000 people left stranded in the path of Katrina? I'm betting that those Katrina welfare victims make more in a month than a lot of Lebanese make in a year. Do all of them even own a vehicle? You're leaving a lot of assumptions on the table as to why they are still there. The difference between the Katrina evacuees and the Lebanon refugees is that Katrina happened over a course of about three days. I know this because I was part of it: I did not evacuate simply because the roads were blocked, and it turned out that Katrina went so much farther north of my area that it turned out I wasn't in any danger. Lebanon refugees have had three (going on four) weeks to evacuate. Lebanon isn't a very large country; in three weeks, I could have walked the 20 miles or so. The only real problem with this is that Syria has closed its borders. I highly doubt Israel would like refugees entering Israel's borders; terrorists have proven time and time again that they love to hide within civilians. So, it would be pretty hard to evacuate to a different country... one that hasn't been embattled (yet). FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 15:27 Anyways back in the late 1970s a civil war broke out in Lebanon between the christians and muslims. Israel was pretty much to blame for the civil war though as they gave the sparks to get it going. What did Israel do to spark the civil war in Lebanon? FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 15:27 Israel supposedly invaded to get rid of the PLO who fled to Lebanon. Anyways during these years Lebanon didn't really have an army so Israel invaded with ease all the way up to beirut. During this time the Israeli commited lots of war crimes: Killing families, raping women, destroying homes etc... Sadly war crimes are often committed by troops that are outside their home. I figure that usually, any real atrocities will have been reported to the right figures though. FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 15:27 Now, Hezbollah is a result of Israeli occupation and war crimes. Well anyways before Israel left Lebanon they took many thousand civilian prisoners with them and have them locked up in Israel and doing god knows what with them. Has Hezbollah, or even Lebanon for that matter, pressed for a U.N. investigation into the treatment of the prisoners that Israel has? I'll leave it up to Israel to decide who to take prisoner and who not to, but if you're claiming that Israel is doing "god knows what with them", then surely an investigation into such would reveal it? FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 15:27 Anyways after the war Hezbollah went political. They built hospitals schools etc... but basically they helped rebuild Lebanon but i have to say nobody built as much as hariri did. Anyways after Israel left Lebanon they still occupied the sheba farm area. There was really no ceasefire tbh, Israeli drones and jetfighters would violate our airspace daily and Hezbollah was constantly trying to negotiate the release of the prisoners for 6 years. I do believe there was a little prisoner swap in 2004 but i can't really remember. Other then Israeli soldiers crossing the border and getting into scuffles with hezbollah everything was good. Anyways i like to press strongly at the fact that hezbollah is a result of israeli war crimes. Almost ALL od\f it's fighters had their families killed by israeli forces, mohers and sisters raped etc... Anyways Hezbollah is pretty much less than a 1000 fighters with only a few thousands reserves. It is a maricle they are keeping 10000 israeli soldiers from invading. The civilian shield thing imo is a load of bull since i talked to family in Lebanon. They even bombed my uncle's gas station lol... Anyways the civilians do not flee because the Lebanese people put dignity first. Our people are not cowards and do not fear the israeli army, tbh at this point the civilians probably are waiting for a major ground invasion to move up so they can get in the fighting. Believe it or not almost every single civilian house keeps weapons such as rpgs, ak47s etc... incase of a israeli invasion. Most of these weapons are soviet erra though but the civilians have access to it. Cowards or not, if the civilians stay and fight, then they are no longer civilians. I think that's a point that a lot of people aren't grasping, and I think that's where the civilian shield idea came from: civilians staying, fighting, and then dying. FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 10:21 i'll be assuming you know israel is using chemical weapons, cluster munitions on civilian populations. Israel using chemical weapons would surprise me. Cluster weapons would also surprise me, but not as much. In any case, the only weapons I've seen the media show Israel using are definitely not cluster weapons. FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 10:21 Nasrallah said: "The only way to stop rocket attacks was to stop the air raids and attacks on the civilians of Lebanon". He has welcomed the IDF to settle any dispute man to man on the southern Lebanon border leaving civlians out of it. I do feel sorry for the 500000 jews living in bomb shelters (if that number hasn't gone up) and all the jews who have fled. It is sad how a whole state of israel must suffer from the zionest regime. If israel wanted to wipe out hezbollah (which it has tried and failed miserably in the past and now) they would listen to nasrallah's demands and settle it on the southern border this way civilians in both sides wouldn't suffer. Tel aviv is threatened to be hit if central beirut is hit (which it hasn't yet, the suburbs aren't considered beirut). If the zionist government decides to hit it then they just endangered a whole lot more civilians. The point im trying to make here is suffering isn't necessary on both sides. Israel knows the rocket attacks stop when they stop bombing lebanese cities, towns, and civilians. I definitely agree with you that a ground assault from Israel would be the better solution. Air superiority alone can not win a war; I believe this has been proven in just about all wars since World War 1. FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 18:05 In the 1st few days of the war Israel bragged that they would finish hezbollah in less than a week. They bragged that they got 50% of the rockets. They bragged that the rocket threat would be over soon. They set their hopes high that they would advance to the latani river. They killed nasrallah a few times a day. While I haven't noticed that Israel claims to have killed nasrallah, I have noticed that they did say that the fighting wouldn't last long and that they had destroyed most of the rockets. While I don't see an end to the fighting for at least another week or two (which, don't get me wrong... that *is* a tragedy); how are we supposed to know that Israel didn't in fact get most of the rockets... at least, at that time. For all that the rest of the world knows, Syria and Iran have been replenishing Hezbollah's supplies (and thus, the reason Israel has been destroying the civilian infrastructure). FMhalo wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 18:05 Today we are in the 24th day of this conflict. Israel hasn't fullfilled any of it's objectives, hasn't been able to advance even a little bit into Lebanon despite having 10000 troops fighting with air support etc... Did you know that Hezbollah was only around 1000 fighters with only about 2000 or so in reserve? How is israel going to get to the latani river? I know 100% the war will end in Lebanon's and Hezbollah's terms as Lebanon just rejected the latest UN resolution as it was a joke to Lebanon's dignity. Israel had 18 years to defeat a Hezbollah who had no military capabilty and they were defeated miserably. The 2000 withdrawl was an embarrassing defeat for Israel. How many military bases and rocket launchers does a militia of a few thousand men have? Seriously... It seems that the "Khezbollah" have more military bases and rocket sites that it was more soldiers. Some of you will remain in denial right now. When 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 10 years go by of another bloody war and Israel hasn't fullfilled it's military objectives then you may finally realise that Israel is waging war on a whole nation. The "meat shield" excuse is an insult to our people. We have lived through years and years of war and we do not fear any aggressors. If Hezbollah dared to use our civilians as meat shields you will be rest assured that the civilian population would hang their heads on a post. Our civilians are armed with soviet era weapons and i assure you if Hezbollah used us as shields they wouldn't last a day. but w/e i've said all that needs to be said if people want to remain pro Israeli go right ahead. Just remember that Israel can hit so many "rocket launchers and "Khezbollah" bases" before you start to realise they are just spewing bs. The same bs they were spewing day 1 of this war. What is "Khezbollah"? Edit: Aircraftkiller, I distincly recall you and I having a short discussion about my noticing that you always seem to insult people and that you think I'm stupid. Try looking at yours and my posts in this thread and think again.
Aircraftkiller wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 17:57 ALL THIS GUY NEEDS TO SAY NOW IS "INFIDELS" AND "PRAISE ALLAH" AND HE'LL SOUND JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HEZBOLLAH PIECE OF SHIT Infact, he already says that, FMhalo is a muslim.
One of the main reasons that Hezbollah has a lot of support is because of the differences in media. Media from that region tends to show more about the victims and the damage then western media. However Hezbollah was not justified in its abduction of the Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah, according to my information, basically controls the nation. That means that things like gas stations must be destroyed to prevent them from being used by militants. The idea that Hezbollah doesn't use civilians as a meat shield is strange to me. Recently in the news there was a story about how a large apartment complex was hit. Around 50 civilians were killed. However, a video released by Israel showed rocket attacks coming from that building. If Israel hit it like it did, it would kill many civilians. Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties. It spends millions on smart bombs to stay on target. However Hezbollah just fires rockets in the direction of Israel and hopes it kills someone. There may be bad blood between Israel and Lebanon but I don't believe Israel would take thousands of civilians and torture them for fun.
Israel is a democracy- when the government does something that the people don't want done, the government gets changed. Unlike *certain* regions where thugs and terrorists run the show and assassinate anyone who disagrees with their agenda. The Israeli government can't just get away with anything; the people of Israel would not let them do that (which was precisely why Sharon changed his position back before he had his stroke- popular support was turning against the hardliners and towards more moderate policies). The general feeling I got when I was in Israel towards the end of June (when this whole thing was just kicking off) was support for any action the government chose to take in recovering the abducted soldiers. Our family has a number of well-connected friends over in Israel, and from what I understand the public is still overwhelmingly in support of the campaign, despite the rocket attacks (and indeed because of the rocket attacks).
Kanezor wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 19:21 I suppose that's possible. I don't claim to be an expert on world politics; it's just that from what I've seen, Israel has complied with the U.N. stuff that I know of, and that's not a lot... pretty much just the ones where the U.N. has told Israel to back off. In any case, I think it would be excellent if there were some references as to where Israel has and has not complied with U.N. resolutions/mandates/whatever. http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_reso lutions.htm
msgtpain wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 20:54 Kanezor wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 19:21 I suppose that's possible. I don't claim to be an expert on world politics; it's just that from what I've seen, Israel has complied with the U.N. stuff that I know of, and that's not a lot... pretty much just the ones where the U.N. has told Israel to back off. In any case, I think it would be excellent if there were some references as to where Israel has and has not complied with U.N. resolutions/mandates/whatever. http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_reso lutions.htm That's quite interesting; thank you.
Quote: i'll be assuming you know israel is using chemical weapons, cluster munitions on civilian populations. The rockets shot by Hezbollah have hundreds if not thousands of ball bearings designed for the maximum carnage possible for a rocket of that size. And they are being purposely aimed and shot at civilian populations. What military purpose does this serve? As far as I have seen(local media,international media, forums, blogs, etc...)Israel is not directly targeting civilians in their bombing campaign. From what I have seen the only thing Israel gives directly to the Lebanese people are leaflets warning them they are in danger before an airstrike hits. To fix the problem in my opinion you have to disarm Hezbollah(a political party in a democratic system does not need a military arm to do its biding), give the two soldiers that they kidnapped back to the Israelis, and make Israel withdraw the territory that it has captured in the recent war. Quote: ALL THIS GUY NEEDS TO SAY NOW IS "INFIDELS" AND "PRAISE ALLAH" AND HE'LL SOUND JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER HEZBOLLAH PIECE OF SHIT Sadly...I have to agree to this statement.
Two things: Aircraftkiller: that post was pointless, who here listened during Religous Education at school? Muslims are forbidden to kill people. the term "Jihad" was used by their prophet (I can't spell his name) to describe the struggle in your head between good and evil, not a literal war. FMhalo's being a muslim (or not, I don't know, and I've learned not to beleive what is written on these forums) is utterly irrlevant. Way to go Ack. Two: "Can't we all just... get along??" Anyways, I think this is going to escalate big time... wait until the street to street fighting starts.
CarrierII wrote on Sun, 06 August 2006 16:27 Two things: Aircraftkiller: that post was pointless, who here listened during Religous Education at school? Muslims are forbidden to kill people. the term "Jihad" was used by their prophet (I can't spell his name) to describe the struggle in your head between good and evil, not a literal war. FMhalo's being a muslim (or not, I don't know, and I've learned not to beleive what is written on these forums) is utterly irrlevant. Way to go Ack. Two: "Can't we all just... get along??" Anyways, I think this is going to escalate big time... wait until the street to street fighting starts. Off cause it matters, where you are from and what you believe matters and defines you as a person, and I know hes a Muslim cause he was in my clan, I had a big flame war against him when I told him to fuck off and die etc lol, anyways.. I was just replying to Ark that he was correct in saying that he would say them things.
There is also a second use of "jihad" which, as I remember, refers to a physical struggle to aid oppressed Muslims. However, the first "jihad" is considered the greater jihad. But it is this second meaning that is twisted to condone extreme violence.
ROFL. Aircraftkiller: that post was pointless, who here listened during Religous Education at school? Muslims are forbidden to kill people. the term "Jihad" was used by their prophet (I can't spell his name) to describe the struggle in your head between good and evil, not a literal war. "When thy Lord spake unto the angels, 'I will be with you: therefore stablish ye the faithful. I will cast a dread into the hearts of the infidels.' Strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every finger tip." - Sura 8:12 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled." Sura 9:29 “Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's. If they desist, verily God beholdeth what they do:" - Sura 8:39-40 “And who believe in what hath been sent down to thee, and in what hath been sent down before thee, and full faith have they in the life to come. These are guided by their Lord; and with these it shall be well. As to the infidels, alike is it to them whether thou warn them or warm them not – they will not believe. Their hearts and their ears hath God sealed up; and over their eyes is a covering. For them, a severe chastisement!�? Sura 2:3-6 "O our Lord! punish us not if we forget, or fall into sin; O our Lord! and lay not on us a load like that which thou has laid on those who have been before us; O our Lord! and lay not on us that for which we have not strength: but blot out our sins and forgive us, and have pity on us. Thou art our protector: give us victory therefore over the infidel nations." Surah 2:286 "Is it not proved to those who inherit this land after its ancient occupants, that if we please we can smite them for their sins, and put a seal upon their hearts, that they hearken not?�? Sura 7:98 “Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them, but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's …" - Sura 8:39-40 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful." Sura 9:5 "It shall be no crime on the part of the blind, the lame, or the sick, if they go not to the fight. But whoso shall obey God and His Apostle, He shall bring him into the gardens 'neath which the rivers flow: but whoso shall turn back, He will punish him with a sore punishment." Sura 48:17 “And when ye go forth to war in the land, it shall be no crime in you to cut short your prayers, if ye fear lest the infidels come upon you; Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies!�? Sura 4:102 “They (the polytheists) sell the signs of God for a mean price, and turn others aside from his way: evil is it that they do!
I was just passing by and felt the need to make a note: The muslim prophet is called "Mohammed" (sometimes "Mohammad).
IWarriors wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 16:53 gbull wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 08:44 IWarriors wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 19:11 [BBF Pirate wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 11:47]Wow, well that would be good - it doesn't work like that in the real world though. Terrorists dont label themselves as such or no doubt Bush would have sent his boys out to do just that a long time ago and tbh, who is a terrorist? it's a matter of opinion. Thats cause the world has gone pussy, I would soon clean up that country... but aslong we have left wing idiots as leaders... we never be able to fix the problem the easy way. I highly doubt that. And what do you doubt`? That you could do anything to change that country if given the authority to try.
gbull wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 08:08 IWarriors wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 16:53 gbull wrote on Sat, 05 August 2006 08:44 IWarriors wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 19:11 [BBF Pirate wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 11:47]Wow, well that would be good - it doesn't work like that in the real world though. Terrorists dont label themselves as such or no doubt Bush would have sent his boys out to do just that a long time ago and tbh, who is a terrorist? it's a matter of opinion. Thats cause the world has gone pussy, I would soon clean up that country... but aslong we have left wing idiots as leaders... we never be able to fix the problem the easy way. I highly doubt that. And what do you doubt`? That you could do anything to change that country if given the authority to try. Then you would be wrong.
I'm a little confused here. Who are the left wing leaders?
mrpirate wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 10:46 I'm a little confused here. Who are the left wing leaders? Most of our world leaders.
I need to find my post where FMhalo said he lived in Lebannon after I called Hezzbolah terrorists and he called them resistance fighters.
IWarriors wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 13:09 mrpirate wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 10:46 I'm a little confused here. Who are the left wing leaders? Most of our world leaders. More specifically? I don't know about you but I don't get the impression that the right wing is under represented on the world stage (cough--Bush).
Bush is more of a 60% liberal 40% conservative mix... hardly what anyone should consider a right wing candidate.
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 00:07 IWarriors wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 13:09 mrpirate wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 10:46 I'm a little confused here. Who are the left wing leaders? Most of our world leaders. More specifically? I don't know about you but I don't get the impression that the right wing is under represented on the world stage (cough--Bush). Well Bush is right wing to a point, but he is held back by his government. Am I the only one who thinks if they could ever be in power, would destroy his enemys RA2 style`? :/ and not this pussy fucking about that we call war now...
IWarriors wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 07:40 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 00:07 IWarriors wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 13:09 mrpirate wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 10:46 I'm a little confused here. Who are the left wing leaders? Most of our world leaders. More specifically? I don't know about you but I don't get the impression that the right wing is under represented on the world stage (cough--Bush). Well Bush is right wing to a point, but he is held back by his government. Am I the only one who thinks if they could ever be in power, would destroy his enemys RA2 style`? :/ and not this pussy fucking about that we call war now... Hopefully you are because this is real life, not RA2, and nothing is quite that simple.
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 10:58 IWarriors wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 07:40 mrpirate wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 00:07 IWarriors wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 13:09 mrpirate wrote on Mon, 07 August 2006 10:46 I'm a little confused here. Who are the left wing leaders? Most of our world leaders. More specifically? I don't know about you but I don't get the impression that the right wing is under represented on the world stage (cough--Bush). Well Bush is right wing to a point, but he is held back by his government. Am I the only one who thinks if they could ever be in power, would destroy his enemys RA2 style`? :/ and not this pussy fucking about that we call war now... Hopefully you are because this is real life, not RA2, and nothing is quite that simple. It could be really simple, but humans have a way to make everything complex. Wouldn't you agree?
Hey air, I think it was...god or something...who said Thou shall not kill. He made a big thing about it...something about only 10 rules...yea how did that work out?
runewood wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 17:38 Hey air, I think it was...god or something...who said Thou shall not kill. He made a big thing about it...something about only 10 rules...yea how did that work out? That was the God of Abraham through Moses. I don't know if muslims believe in that same God (is not Allah a different God? Actually... don't answer that in this thread; it is a nice subject, but one destined to take this one off topic) and thus those specific commandments. In any case, I don't recall any of the Ten Commandments saying that you cannot defend yourself. Nor do I remember anything saying that you cannot defend friends, family, and country against those that would destroy it.
okay this is how it is. 2 soldiers got captured right. And how many has israel killed in palestine. i dont know how many but its a lot. US will always favor a country which wants to wipe out muslims. I love thier theme( it is true). There was no need for war. Israel just wants to start and blame hezbollah so it will wipe out more muslims. well. lebanon does need some changes and i do agree that hezbollah shouldn't have done this. But.. israel deserved it so TAKE THAT SUCKAS!!!! TBH, all of this is becuz of stupid political leaders. The people themselves r suffering and dieing. u really cant change the government now. The middle east crisis will eventually lead to WWIII. That will be end of world because every country has nuclear wpns. For example, russia has enough nuclear ammunition to go around the world 3-4 times over.
Wow Appshot, never thought I'd here such idiocy and terrible grammar in one post. You think we always want to wipe out Muslims? How about when we supplied Pakistan weapons to distribute to Afghanis to fight off the Russians who were not muslims. Do some research before you make yourself sound like an ass.
Bugger off. It is blatantly obvious that you haven't even the faintest of clues what you're talking about, that you haven't paid any attention at all to recent events in the Middle East, and that you've been spoon-fed your opinion by someone else instead of looking at the available information and making up your own damn mind.
Ch0ps i m only talking about right now as in this crisis. Pakistan has been known its terrorist camps but USA is favoring it because of the war in Afganistan and other middle-east crisis.For example, Pakistan has been sending India terrorists to kill thousands of people. u know how many people have died in India because of them? And nukeit... tell me what happened mr.genius.
Whoever it is I'm quite sure I can get away with calling him a complete fucking moron without any consequences whatsoever. Pointing out the obvious, after all, isn't a bannable offense. Quote: US will always favor a country which wants to wipe out muslims. Not only are you generalizing, but you're also presenting an obviously false statement as truth. If the US was so opposed to Islam, then why in the flying holy fuck is it legal and openly accepted here? The logical, reasonable answer: The US is not anti-Muslim, and you are talking out your ass. Quote: There was no need for war. Israel just wants to start and blame hezbollah so it will wipe out more muslims. Again, an obvious falsehood. Not only are you ignoring the fact that Hezbollah, not Israel, started this conflict, but also you ignoring the fact that Israel has a huge number of Muslim citizens who would be absolutely outraged by any anti-Islam policy. That is absolutely not Israel's motivation, and if you had ever been there you would know that instead of, again, talking out your ass. Quote: But.. israel deserved it so TAKE THAT SUCKAS!!!! What a grand justification for starting a war. I forsee a brilliant life in politics for you. Quote: The people themselves r suffering and dieing. u really cant change the government now. People are suffering and dying... well no shit, Sherlock. Maybe your beloved terrorist group shouldn't have started a fucking war. And yes, governments are difficult to change- there are only two ways to change governments, as a great man once said: the ballot box, or the bullet box. Either way, once the people of a country are dissatisfied with their regime and passionate enough to act, governments can and do change. Quote: The middle east crisis will eventually lead to WWIII. That will be end of world because every country has nuclear wpns. For example, russia has enough nuclear ammunition to go around the world 3-4 times over. And what, pray tell, leads you to believe that global nuclear war will erupt over what is going on right now? I'm not sayingt hat it isn't a possibility; the threat of nuclear war always looms on the horizon- but what specific evidence can you provide that the present confict will escalate to a point that drags all the world's nuclear powers into a shooting war?
Kanezor wrote on Wed, 09 August 2006 07:15 runewood wrote on Tue, 08 August 2006 17:38 Hey air, I think it was...god or something...who said Thou shall not kill. He made a big thing about it...something about only 10 rules...yea how did that work out? That was the God of Abraham through Moses. I don't know if muslims believe in that same God (is not Allah a different God? Actually... don't answer that in this thread; it is a nice subject, but one destined to take this one off topic) and thus those specific commandments. In any case, I don't recall any of the Ten Commandments saying that you cannot defend yourself. Nor do I remember anything saying that you cannot defend friends, family, and country against those that would destroy it. I meant that even though Christianity teaches peace, it doesn’t always work that way. Islam also teaches peace but there are some who misinterpret the texts, or change them for their own goals. The fact of the matter is, all we can do is look to a set of ideals that we agree with and try to live by them the best we can. Shit happens, people die.