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ar ther any relligiss peple on this form that think if you share diffrent beleifs or r cathlic than them YOU will burn in hell??? just askin becus acording to my frend im not cathlik so im going to hell thees peple think were bad.....
Catholics do not believe that acknowledging yourself as a sinner is necessary, and that doing good deeds will get you into Heaven (directly contradicting the Bible). They also pray to Mary (idolizing), chant (God said don't do that!), and consider the Pope to be holy (for our righteousness is that of filthy rags-- sound familiar?). Whoah, where did all that come from? I'm not a Catholic! Creepy... PS: Issues not related to Renegade should be posted in the "Politics" sub-forum.
He can post crap like that in the general discussion if he'd like. General discussion = anything goes. Although, it would be nice if this particular ban-evader stopped coming back. Or became legible.
im beleave in no god. no religion i win!
hmmm, it's kind of funny that these religion-related topics appear often in the community. Like idjit, i am an atheist. I believe in no gods, no supernatural beings, demons or whatever. There could be a god, but there is nothing to convince me in His existance, yet.
All I can say is: You had better be right. Or you're fucked.
Believing just to *avoid* being fucked is just cowardly in my opinion...if you can't find a better reason to believe than that, you might want to rethink your values... Bah, what I believe is that people should stop labeling each others , especially into different religious groups, but I guess that's not possible. Personally, I'm some sort of agnostic-atheist combination if you insist converting my beliefs into a word. I believe that a higher being can exist, but it doesn't have to be "supernatural" or otherwise outside our grasp, it could be just a very advanced(evolved) being capable of affecting the world through ways we haven't discovered yet. Or such a being might not exist at all.
Since this is a topic regarding religion, and the impending insults relating to the ...Engligh... of the initial post, I'm moving this to the Hot Topics forum.
I can't take this topic seriously because its first post was just awful, even by Moee's standards. By the way, Moee, though I do not believe in god, I still hope you go to hell.
Scythar wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 08:19 Believing just to *avoid* being fucked is just cowardly in my opinion...if you can't find a better reason to believe than that, you might want to rethink your values... Bah, what I believe is that people should stop labeling each others , especially into different religious groups, but I guess that's not possible. Personally, I'm some sort of agnostic-atheist combination if you insist converting my beliefs into a word. I believe that a higher being can exist, but it doesn't have to be "supernatural" or otherwise outside our grasp, it could be just a very advanced(evolved) being capable of affecting the world through ways we haven't discovered yet. Or such a being might not exist at all. I didn't say thats the reason why I believe. I just said that if he doesn't, and he is wrong, he's fucked.
gbull wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 11:30 Scythar wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 08:19 Believing just to *avoid* being fucked is just cowardly in my opinion...if you can't find a better reason to believe than that, you might want to rethink your values... Bah, what I believe is that people should stop labeling each others , especially into different religious groups, but I guess that's not possible. Personally, I'm some sort of agnostic-atheist combination if you insist converting my beliefs into a word. I believe that a higher being can exist, but it doesn't have to be "supernatural" or otherwise outside our grasp, it could be just a very advanced(evolved) being capable of affecting the world through ways we haven't discovered yet. Or such a being might not exist at all. I didn't say thats the reason why I believe. I just said that if he doesn't, and he is wrong, he's fucked. God is all forgiven, so hes not fucked and aswell Jesus died for our sins, so thats two get out of hell cards. Am Agnostic.
I wonder why it is that people insist on saying that there must be one and only one true path through life. There are billions of people living on this planet, and no faith has ever been able to claim more than a quarter to a third of them at any given time. Does that mean all the rest are automatically doomed because they believe something different? Even if your faith tells you that anyone who doesn't follow your faith is destined for damnation, is it not possible to accept the fact that they don't believe that to be true? It isn't always so clear-cut as "If you're wrong, you're fucked." What happens if the hereafter turns out to be just another stage of a continuing existence, where one's words and actions before death have little to do with what happens to them afterwards? What happens if everyone ends up exactly where they believed they would, according to what they really believed to be the absolute truth? The entire span of human history has never seen a single, unified faith for all. How can any one claim that all the others are by their very nature wrong, when there are so many out there who believe otherwise? Try to see people with different beliefs not as people who have strayed from "the Truth" but as people who have merely found a different "Truth" to follow. It puts things in a whole new perspective.
Well, I believe that all religions have preyed on people's instinctual(?) need to know what happens when you die in order to control and manipulate them and keep them in line. I think most people know that, deep down, but are afraid to admit it out loud when they've been brought up to believe in all this "God" crap. I'm not specifically saying there is no diety higher than humans, but I think there are many many other possibilities to explain why we're here, and ultimately, it probably doesn't matter. I am mostly an atheist/agnostic type, though my beliefs can't fall into any specific category. Unlike some atheists, I do believe that most people are too weak to stay on a "do unto others" path without the manufactured fear of an omniscient watching them and promising eternal punishment. For that, I like religion. I believe that IF the more popular faiths are right, then this God isn't going to banish me to hell simply for not believing he exists, if I have strived to live my life without causing harm to others. (Even if sometimes I fail at that) All of you heretics should enjoy this: http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank
Berkut wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 01:45 Catholics do not believe that acknowledging yourself as a sinner is necessary, and that doing good deeds will get you into Heaven (directly contradicting the Bible). They also pray to Mary (idolizing), chant (God said don't do that!), and consider the Pope to be holy (for our righteousness is that of filthy rags-- sound familiar?). Whoah, where did all that come from? I'm not a Catholic! Creepy... PS: Issues not related to Renegade should be posted in the "Politics" sub-forum. Normally I would address such misconceptions, but since it seems that most people paying attention to this thread are atheist or agnostic (and knowing that I can't possibly change your mind with one forum post and that religious discussions on the Internet inevitably lead to bad, bad ends...and seeing that this was started by Moee, in which case I refuse to add anything to encourage his moronic excuses for threads) I won't bother at this time. I will recommend engaging in serious discussion with a priest or other trained apologetic or checking out books for another point of view (such as Pope Fiction and others by Patrick Madrid) if you seriously would like to better understand what we believe and why.
Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 14:08 I believe that IF the more popular faiths are right, then this God isn't going to banish me to hell simply for not believing he exists, if I have strived to live my life without causing harm to others. (Even if sometimes I fail at that.) Well, I had a brilliant stroke of genius in #apathbeyond one day when we were discussing things about how God would banish his people to an eternity of torture. That, I believe, is a complete misconception. God isn't torturing you... you're allowing yourself to be tortured. Think of it this way... as we are his children: You're a child, you start to wander from your parents at a store. You keep wandering until you parents are NOWHERE in sight. You're scared out of your mind. This, to you, is torture. Now, your parents aren't torturing you by not being there... you've allowed yourself to be tortured by not staying on the right path. I don't believe Hell is this hot, fiery eternity. I think it's more or less you just being eternally lost. As for being a kind person... so? Again, I'll go with a child-parent analogy. Your parents aren't going to allow you into their house if you treat them like they don't exist. Whether or not you're a kind person. How does that make your parents desire to let you back in their house. They've been there for you, but if you fail to acknowledge them... then why are you expected to be allowed into their house without recognition? This could be turned on the flipside as to why bad people are allowed into Heaven. No matter how bad of a person you may be, your family will be there alongside you... as long as you choose to acknowledge them and love them. You don't have to be perfect for them to love you.
j_ball430 wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 15:39 as we are his children: You're a child, you start to wander from your parents at a store. You keep wandering until you parents are NOWHERE in sight. You're scared out of your mind. This, to you, is torture. Now, your parents aren't torturing you by not being there... you've allowed yourself to be tortured by not staying on the right path. It's not the children's fault if he gets lost in a mall. It's the parents. If you lose your 6-year-old kid, it's your problem. I don't think any real parent could blame it on the child. On the other hand, if the child deliberatley decides to leave his parents at later age for example, then he obviously doesn't want to be with them in the first place. If compared to your metaphor, it would mean that we, the children, believe in God, but don't want to be with him. We want to live our own lives. Quote: As for being a kind person... so? Again, I'll go with a child-parent analogy. Your parents aren't going to allow you into their house if you treat them like they don't exist. Whether or not you're a kind person. If you treat your parent like they're nothing, you're obviously not a kind person. Unless there's somekind of "kindness-meter" that decides whether you go up or down, but we're not aware of one. The only thing we have are the values in the Bible, and based on those, only a very small percent of christians could go to Heaven. ---- Most faiths are good, they teach important values and respect towards others. I'd like to think god as an omnipotent and omnipresent being: one that is everywhere and capable of doing anything. That basically means he can also be anything. Maybe christianity, buddhism, hinduism etc, are just individual ways to believe in the one true omnipower, since it can be anything...this means even bad things are a vital part of life. But enough of this for today, sorry for any possible errors on my part, it's a bit late.
Has anyone here read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
Scythar wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 17:16 j_ball430 wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 15:39 as we are his children: You're a child, you start to wander from your parents at a store. You keep wandering until you parents are NOWHERE in sight. You're scared out of your mind. This, to you, is torture. Now, your parents aren't torturing you by not being there... you've allowed yourself to be tortured by not staying on the right path. It's not the children's fault if he gets lost in a mall. It's the parents. If you lose your 6-year-old kid, it's your problem. I don't think any real parent could blame it on the child. On the other hand, if the child deliberatley decides to leave his parents at later age for example, then he obviously doesn't want to be with them in the first place. If compared to your metaphor, it would mean that we, the children, believe in God, but don't want to be with him. We want to live our own lives. No, as a child I wandered away from my parents. It was MY fault. My parents didn't do anything special to make me walk away. In my own ignorance and own little world, I wandered away. Was I bad for doing so? No, but I'm still at fault for walking away. Did I know it was going to result in me being lost? Again, no, but that still doesn't shift the blame.
Wow so many different views on religion. Im not even sure what religion i should be and havent decided yet.My mom was anglican, and my dad a muslim lol.Kinda a wierd mix.Anyway i dont beleive that there is a GOD but that there could and hopefully be a higher power and hopefully that there is a heaven.Its really hard to imagine that once you die thats it like ure spirit is gone forever.Then there is reicarnation that sounds like it could be true.My mom has told me some stories about myself and how i told her about my past life when i was like 3, like i told her in great detail.There are so many different religions that is impossible to say that one is right and all the rest are shit out of luck.IF there is a god i cant see him/her/it sayin that if u dont do exactly as i say ure going to hell,haha.It makes more sense that he/her/it would just want people to be good desent people that dont go around stealing or killing or hurting people or other bad things. so i have no clue what religion i am, i dont have exact beliefs.
Remember this, though. No one can tell you what to believe, only what they believe. The rest is up to you. As for me, I could not understand the 'invented' faiths. I tried incorporating science to make a judgment, but it only contributed to a Creationist view. All existence must come from a prior source. Evolution among other faiths removes any primary source in such a ways as to dictate that existence originates from... existence? I also hear the "Well, I'll believe God when I see Him" deal. Good argument. I can't see my eyes, but I'm pretty sure I have some. I can't see entropy, yet entropy is one of the most powerful governing controls of this existence. Besides, by the time you see God, it's a bit too late to have a second opinion. Think what you will, but Atheism is still a faith... the faith that there is no God. Better hope you're right on that one. As for the "well, a kind and just God wouldn't make people go to Hell" deal; Hell was not meant for humans. We screwed that one up with Adam. Besides, no one has to go to Hell. What makes it so hard to admit to doing wrong? And (as some people have), to denounce God and risk Hell just because God offered a way out of it? Where's the sense in that? "The churches only exist to get money." Sure. This makes some sense. I'll pay 30% of what I make to the government in income taxes, pay taxes on postage, taxes on every single thing I buy, on inheritances, and on my own house! Sure! Why not? But God forbid I give 10% of what I make to an organization whose only income is inconsistent donations... Razgriz out. What the heck made me type like that? There should have been twice as many grammar errors.
Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god. I love it.
Outraged? Nah, I don't care quite that much about it. It's their decision. ...when did I say outraged, anyway? When any other gods start saving my life on a regular basis, I'll thank them.
A debate on religion!? I WANT TO PLAY TOO!!! These are always fun. I believe in God. I believe Jesus died for my sins and I acknowledge that I am a sinner and that I can not get to heaven because I am not perfect. I believe Jesus died for my sins and that is why I believe I will go to heaven. I believe that because thats what the bible teaches. If you ever hear some one say they have been saved thats what they are talking about. I believe if you don't believe in God, or Jesus you will go to hell. Your willingly ignorant to the truth. Even if you don't believe the truth. It would be cool if you got down on your knees tonight before bed and prayed to God, or Jesus...*same thing believe it or not* It's not to late. Even if you bashed God all your life he will forgive you. In your prayer tell Jesus that you acknowledge you are a sinner and your not perfect. Thank Jesus for dieing on the cross for your sins. Ask Jesus to lead your life and ask him into your heart and he will forgive your sins. If you truly believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you ask him into your heart and acknowledge you are a sinner when you die you will go to heaven. There is nothing you can do to go to heaven the only way is Jesus. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Sorry thats the way it is. Ok I know I really opened myself up here for a good bashing... but thats half the fun.
Berkut wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 23:55 I can't see my eyes, but I'm pretty sure I have some. I can't see entropy, yet entropy is one of the most powerful governing controls of this existence. Besides, by the time you see God, it's a bit too late to have a second opinion. Think what you will, but Atheism is still a faith... the faith that there is no God. Better hope you're right on that one. First you can prove you have eyes, by looking at a other person or better yet, a mirrior, digging them out and looking at them etc. You cant prove there is god, only man made ideas about it which in the end are meanless as it was created by man. Now, Atheism is not a faith and will never be a faith. God and religion was created by man 1000s of years ago to explain why things happan, like why did my wife, goat, sheep whatever die and why does it rain and shit on me? etc.. I dont know about you, but if today some guy started to talk about god and start his own religion up, he would be called a wacko and laughed at and happy ignored, but cause our major religons are so old, everyone belives in it... so typical of human stupidty to fellow anything thats been passed down the ages. I dont really care if people belive in gods and whatever, thats their choice and I will happy defend their freedom of choice with my life, I just dont like it when someone starts screaming at me or others that they must convert ot they gonna go to hell, etc like many god beliveing people do. orgasised religion should be banned in my eyes, it promotes too much human stupidty in people, dont belive me`? All the christian crusades and now the muslims terrorists bombing almost anything... this is what happans when you get people together who all belive in the same thing, they force it upon others. ends rant. (Am not attacking you or anything just thought I would post on what I think about the subject after I replyed to you´r thoughts)
Crimson wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 00:26 Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”
Berkut wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 01:32 When any other gods start saving my life on a regular basis, I'll thank them. But that's like saying "when any other gods starts lifting things around in my house, I'll believe them" or "When I see any other gods, I acknowledge them". How could you know if some other god hasn't already rescued you from a close call situation? It's not like the divine folks leave a message on paper after each time they save you. My point is that you'd praise your current god for whatever miracles happen, making your statement a bit more complicated. You don't believe in other gods, and so you won't thank them. How can you be sure that if you experience some religiously rich sensation, it's your god, the right god, that's causing it? Quote: What makes it so hard to admit to doing wrong? The problem isn't in people not admitting they've done wrong. I'm betting about 98% of us on this planet admit that we've done something bad in our lives. Quote: And (as some people have), to denounce God and risk Hell just because God offered a way out of it? Where's the sense in that? If there was a religion that believed that there are 16 Great Guardians of the sun, and if you don't believe in them, your spirit eternally burns in sun after you die, would you believe in them? You know, just not to risk it...it could be true, after all, no? Yeah, you don't believe it. You don't believe that your spirit would burn in sun, so there's not much to risk. Same applies to your question. People aren't bothered by things they don't believe in. Makes perfect sense. I swear, if I had to start worrying about every faith and religion in this world to avoid bad things, I'd go nuts.
Scythar wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 09:59 Berkut wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 01:32 When any other gods start saving my life on a regular basis, I'll thank them. But that's like saying "when any other gods starts lifting things around in my house, I'll believe them" or "When I see any other gods, I acknowledge them". How could you know if some other god hasn't already rescued you from a close call situation? It's not like the divine folks leave a message on paper after each time they save you. My point is that you'd praise your current god for whatever miracles happen, making your statement a bit more complicated. You don't believe in other gods, and so you won't thank them. How can you be sure that if you experience some religiously rich sensation, it's your god, the right god, that's causing it? I think he means saving as in dieing and saving him from his sins. Or maybe he means literally saving his life I don't know. Just saying that cuz i was trying to figure that out too
GrayWolf wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 04:42 ...If you truly believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you ask him into your heart and acknowledge you are a sinner when you die you will go to heaven. There is nothing you can do to go to heaven the only way is Jesus... Believe in Jesus as the son of the omnipotent God, or as a human that existed? Just asking because a lot of folk believe he existed, but he was just a man which we made divine with our writings, not divine to begin with. If I believe Jesus existed, and even believe he died for our sins because he wanted to, does that take me up there? I already know I've done bad things in my life, just like most other folks, and I'm sure I won't stop believing so when I die. This doesn't even require me to believe in any supernatural force, just to a man who lived and was, perhaps, a philosophist who decided to die for us for whatever reason. Nice to see folks who actually read the book, there's a lot of christian folks around who haven't even read it. Even I've read most of the Old Testament and I don't really believe in it. I don't think we have that many bashers on this board, people are pretty open-minded, it seems.
Scythar wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 11:24 GrayWolf wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 04:42 ...If you truly believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins and you ask him into your heart and acknowledge you are a sinner when you die you will go to heaven. There is nothing you can do to go to heaven the only way is Jesus... Believe in Jesus as the son of the omnipotent God, or as a human that existed? Just asking because a lot of folk believe he existed, but he was just a man which we made divine with our writings, not divine to begin with. If I believe Jesus existed, and even believe he died for our sins because he wanted to, does that take me up there? I already know I've done bad things in my life, just like most other folks, and I'm sure I won't stop believing so when I die. This doesn't even require me to believe in any supernatural force, just to a man who lived and was, perhaps, a philosophist who decided to die for us for whatever reason. Nice to see folks who actually read the book, there's a lot of christian folks around who haven't even read it. Even I've read most of the Old Testament and I don't really believe in it. I don't think we have that many bashers on this board, people are pretty open-minded, it seems. This is hard to explain without explaining the trinity. The trinity is the father, the holy spirit, and Jesus. All parts make up God... Best I can explain it without going into great detail. Scythar asked "Believe in Jesus as the son of the omnipotent God, or as a human that existed?" The bible says both. Jesus is fully God and fully man. Scythar asked "If I believe Jesus existed, and even believe he died for our sins because he wanted to, does that take me up there?" The bible say's that Yes if you believe Jesus existed, and believe he died for your sins because he wanted to, and that he rose from death and ascended into heaven you will be saved and go to heaven. You brought up a good point. Jesus came to earth knowing full well he was going to die for us, and rose from death, defeating death. He wanted this because he loves us. We are his creation. Also thank you for being so polite.
Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 23:26 Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. I'm sorry Crimson, but do you realize how -well, to call it what it is- pathetic it is to base your belief on the absence of something doing what you demand it to do?
Berkut wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 00:55 I tried incorporating science to make a judgment, but it only contributed to a Creationist view. All existence must come from a prior source. Evolution among other faiths removes any primary source in such a ways as to dictate that existence originates from... existence? I've encorporated evolution into my theologic views. I believe completely in evolution. In fact, I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I believe that the Creationist theory is correct... just told in a different way. I mean, they didn't exactly have advanced sciences during those ancient times, so explaining it the way we are taught now would have went over their heads. Instead, the way Genesis explains it is a more colorful and easy way of understanding it. That is purely my opinion. Nobody told me this, and I'm certainly not going to preach this as truth.
GrayWolf wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 09:58 Crimson wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 00:26 Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.” How convenient...
God isn't going to show himself to anybody through any intervention like that, and expecting Him to do so is ludicrous.
Quote: Remember this, though. No one can tell you what to believe, only what they believe. The rest is up to you. QFT. From any perspective, regardless of why you said that, it is quite possibly the most universally applicable thing I've ever seen anybody say in a thread like this. Lots of folks will try very hard to show you their door, but only you can make the decision to go through it or hold back. That goes for anybody, regardless of what they believe. One thing I'd like to pick on a bit, and I realize that I always do this when these threads crop up- Atheism is not a faith. I am an atheist because I believe in no gods. Anybody in this thread who believes in one God is a monotheist. Atheism is simply a blanket grouping for any number of beliefs or belief systems that hinge on the key point that there are no such things as gods. That's it; that's all there is to it. You might meet one person who is an atheist who believes there is nothing but the physical, observable world, and you might meet another the very next moment who believes in an afterlife, ghosts, spontaneous generation, etc. Atheism is no more specific than Monotheism or Polytheism, as it defines only one aspect of any given person's faith. Don't fall into the trap of assuming all Atheists believe in the same exact things. I believe in the infinite. I do not believe there ever was an absolute beginning, nor do I believe there ever will be an absolute end. What we see now is only a moment in an infinite chain of events. Death, therefore, cannot be the end of existence. I do not believe anyone can see or understand the true nature of what lies beyond death, but there must be something- or we wouldn't be here at all. The only absolute is that there are no limits; there is no power that cannot be reached- but that also means that there can be no supreme, insurmountable power. Therefore, even if we were as a race created, our creator would not by definition be a god- merely someone or something so far beyond our present understanding as to appear godlike. Humanity could some day reach such a level, and continue to grow far beyond- perhaps death is merely the next step higher. Right or wrong, that's what I believe to be true.
NukeIt15 wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:58 Don't fall into the trap of assuming all Atheists believe in the same exact things. Assuming all Athiests believe the same thing is the same concept as everybody assuming all Christians believe in the same exact things. That's obviously false, else there wouldn't be several denominations of the church.
NukeIt15 wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:58 I believe in the infinite. I do not believe there ever was an absolute beginning, nor do I believe there ever will be an absolute end. What we see now is only a moment in an infinite chain of events. Death, therefore, cannot be the end of existence. I do not believe anyone can see or understand the true nature of what lies beyond death, but there must be something- or we wouldn't be here at all. The only absolute is that there are no limits; there is no power that cannot be reached- but that also means that there can be no supreme, insurmountable power. Therefore, even if we were as a race created, our creator would not by definition be a god- merely someone or something so far beyond our present understanding as to appear godlike. Humanity could some day reach such a level, and continue to grow far beyond- perhaps death is merely the next step higher. Yeah this is a very interesting point of view, I've thought about it sometimes too. It also means that these "gods" probably wage wars against other ones just like we here. They form alliances and ultimately try to gain as much control as possible, just like us. Even if the human race knew there was no end the existence, and gaining everything was not possible, I'm pretty sure something would still be driving us to succeed as far as possible, and gain as much as we can. But we haven't really taken even the first steps on this infinite ladder.
[quote title=Scythar wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 17:03] NukeIt15 wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:58 I believe in the infinite. I do not believe there ever was an absolute beginning, nor do I believe there ever will be an absolute end. What we see now is only a moment in an infinite chain of events. Death, therefore, cannot be the end of existence. I do not believe anyone can see or understand the true nature of what lies beyond death, but there must be something- or we wouldn't be here at all. The only absolute is that there are no limits; there is no power that cannot be reached- but that also means that there can be no supreme, insurmountable power. Therefore, even if we were as a race created, our creator would not by definition be a god- merely someone or something so far beyond our present understanding as to appear godlike. Humanity could some day reach such a level, and continue to grow far beyond- perhaps death is merely the next step higher. This is what I belive myself regarnding to to something that is is far ahead of us and has god like powers, who knows a vast power out there could had made us and would be our "god" but would we become our own gods one day when we crate life outselfs`? I think so, one day, who knows.
I don't think humanity will ever be able to create life...
There are some people who believe that consciousness is a byproduct of data processing. So while it may be outside the scope of science to create biological life from nothing (maybe it's not, I'm no biologist) perhaps it's possible that we will create--and have been creating--machines that are conscious in some way or another.
GrayWolf wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 23:23 I don't think humanity will ever be able to create life... Why not? we already on our first steps on cloning dogs and sheep.. and there are people who want to move onto the next step and clone humans... Its all about genes and modding crap, you take something and remodel the genens and you make something elas.. like rats with human ears and crap.. There is nothing we can do now, the only limit is our knownage. mrpirate wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 22:38 There are some people who believe that consciousness is a byproduct of data processing. So while it may be outside the scope of science to create biological life from nothing (maybe it's not, I'm no biologist) perhaps it's possible that we will create--and have been creating--machines that are conscious in some way or another. Yes I agree, this is why we should be careful in building rebots.
Animals that are being cloned today aren't being created, but modified to share the same genes as the animal they were taken from. Humans aren't creating life when they do that. They're only modifying it.
I take back what I said. Humans create life all the time... Sex. lol I should have phrased it like this. Humans will never create life from scratch. Cloning isn't creating life. Cloning still needs the use of a mother. No life has been created in a lab or a jar or anywhere from scratch its impossible. At least impossible for humans. I believe God is the only one who can create life from scratch. I do not believe life just randomly just started.
GrayWolf wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 02:21 I take back what I said. Humans create life all the time... Sex. lol I should have phrased it like this. Humans will never create life from scratch. Cloning isn't creating life. Cloning still needs the use of a mother. No life has been created in a lab or a jar or anywhere from scratch its impossible. At least impossible for humans. I believe God is the only one who can create life from scratch. I do not believe life just randomly just started. Whoever said "God" didnt crate us from something elas`? its pretty much a fact that we didnt just "pop" to life on the earth, unless you belive adam and eve bs story lol It took us 1000s of years to evole to what we are now. Am sure in time when we evole more, there be nothing we can do, only limit is our knownage and new knownage is being learnt at a super fast rate and with knownage comes power and with power becomes godhood.
GrayWolf wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 03:21 I should have phrased it like this. Humans will never create life from scratch. What do you personally define as "from scratch"? Is it enough to mix DNA? Or should we start from molecules? Atoms? Quarks? Or the intense circumstances present at the time things were created, one way or the other? In my opinion, to start from scratch means we have to understand the world completely to figure out the "scartch" in the first place. Your argument is strong considering we don't even know what IS a scratch yet, but time seems to be on the scientists side for now...maybe by the time we can make things from scratch, we already know whether there's a God or not. Quote: Whoever said "God" didnt crate us from something elas`? its pretty much a fact that we didnt just "pop" to life on the earth, unless you belive adam and eve bs story lol Eve was made from Adams rib, if that's the right bone I'm looking for.
warranto wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 05:59 Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 23:26 Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. I'm sorry Crimson, but do you realize how -well, to call it what it is- pathetic it is to base your belief on the absence of something doing what you demand it to do? I guess you fail to grasp my point. I don't believe in any god created by any religion. I see your belief in a god as you view a child believing in Santa Claus. To me, the story of a man up at the North Pole making toys with elves is just as illogical and implausible as the story of our Jesus. Personally I don't see how it was such a huge sacrifice if the story is as you say. If he knew he would come down and die for our sins and become a god or whatever, then how is that a sacrifice? If I could die right now and become an immortal god, I'd sign up too. The sacrifice of death loses all meaning when you don't actually lose your life. That's my point. It's a joke. All of it. A very elaborate joke that has fooled billions.
Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 07:07 warranto wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 05:59 Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 23:26 Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. I'm sorry Crimson, but do you realize how -well, to call it what it is- pathetic it is to base your belief on the absence of something doing what you demand it to do? I guess you fail to grasp my point. I don't believe in any god created by any religion. I see your belief in a god as you view a child believing in Santa Claus. To me, the story of a man up at the North Pole making toys with elves is just as illogical and implausible as the story of our Jesus. Personally I don't see how it was such a huge sacrifice if the story is as you say. If he knew he would come down and die for our sins and become a god or whatever, then how is that a sacrifice? If I could die right now and become an immortal god, I'd sign up too. The sacrifice of death loses all meaning when you don't actually lose your life. That's my point. It's a joke. All of it. A very elaborate joke that has fooled billions. Yep, very true.
I wish people were a little more informed on the story if they care to share their opinion. Jesus didn't get to become a god because he died... he IS God, was God, and always will be God.
j_ball430 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 09:50 I wish people were a little more informed on the story if they care to share their opinion. Jesus didn't get to become a god because he died... he IS God, was God, and always will be God.
j_ball430 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 10:50 I wish people were a little more informed on the story if they care to share their opinion. Jesus didn't get to become a god because he died... he IS God, was God, and always will be God. That still doesn't nullify her point. Since Jesus was God and continued to be so after being killed, where's the great "sacrificed himself for the humanity"-part? What did he sacrifice? I can understand the part about forgiving us our sins and whatnot, but am I supposed to feel bad for the poor dude because he lost his avatar on earth and "had to" return to heaven? Sacrifice just isn't the right word, no matter how I try to look at it.
Scythar wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:27 Since Jesus was God and continued to be so after being killed, where's the great "sacrificed himself for the humanity"-part? Right, I forgot that crucifiction is a completely pain-free process and does not, in any way involve embarassment beyond human reasoning.
Berkut wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:32 Scythar wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:27 Since Jesus was God and continued to be so after being killed, where's the great "sacrificed himself for the humanity"-part? Right, I forgot that crucifiction is a completely pain-free process and does not, in any way involve embarassment beyond human reasoning. Yeah that's a good and valid point, crucification was supposedly one of the most painful and humiliating ways to end a life. But I still have a feeling that the whole cycle of events was written by sensationalists at best. And about the "beyond human reasoning"-part, yeah this is very close to the part in religion where we have to choose to believe or not ourselves, it's not something someone else can tell you.
Berkut wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 11:32 Scythar wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:27 Since Jesus was God and continued to be so after being killed, where's the great "sacrificed himself for the humanity"-part? Right, I forgot that crucifiction is a completely pain-free process and does not, in any way involve embarassment beyond human reasoning. If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again. anyway, if it lets you sleep better at night, fine.
IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:19 If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again. Oh, please. The stupid, and pathetic, "he should have saved himself" argument. Ever think about maybe what he did was for the greater good? Police officers can "save themselves" in certain situations, but they put others above themselves. This is the same concept. Jesus suffered two deaths that day. He suffered an eternal death in Hell and the human physical death. THAT is the sacrifice. He suffered the eternal death, so we don't have to. Not just that he died because people didn't like him. THAT is why he didn't "save himself".
Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 06:07 warranto wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 05:59 Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 23:26 Well, I bought a "Yo God!" meter. If God exists, all he has to do is move the little needle over to "Yes". While it stays on "No", I will continue to believe he doesn't exist. It arrives soon. I'm sorry Crimson, but do you realize how -well, to call it what it is- pathetic it is to base your belief on the absence of something doing what you demand it to do? I guess you fail to grasp my point. I don't believe in any god created by any religion. I see your belief in a god as you view a child believing in Santa Claus. To me, the story of a man up at the North Pole making toys with elves is just as illogical and implausible as the story of our Jesus. Personally I don't see how it was such a huge sacrifice if the story is as you say. If he knew he would come down and die for our sins and become a god or whatever, then how is that a sacrifice? If I could die right now and become an immortal god, I'd sign up too. The sacrifice of death loses all meaning when you don't actually lose your life. That's my point. It's a joke. All of it. A very elaborate joke that has fooled billions. Oh, it doesn't matter to me if you believe or not, just don't base it on an arguement of "Do what I demand, or I won't believe". As for the whole "Santa Clause" thing, try to look back on where the idea of him came from. There is a reason he is also call "St. Nick". While the whole North-pole, riding around the world in one night is ficticious, "Santa Clause" was still very much a real person.
Crimson wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 14:08 All of you heretics should enjoy this: http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank brilliant find ROFL
I honestly feel bad for you people. I do care what you believe in. If I didn't why would I even talk to you. If you guys didn't face hell when you died I really wouldn't care how ignorant of the truth you are. Im not stupid, I know you guys think that believing in God is being brain washed and it means you have to go to church and be a perfect person, and you can't drink anymore and that you can't fun anymore... The people who believe this haven't read the bible. It's simply not true. I feel terrible knowing that one day you guys might be on the edge of life and death feeling horrible thinking and wondering what you have to look forward to after you die. You think that this is just the end that when you die you will just not exist. Maybe you think when you die you'll be reincarnated as someone else. Then you die and your standing before God. God speaks and says "Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels." Jesus said. Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. So now your in hell. That's it your there forever. Then you'll believe in God. You'll also probably remember the day on earth when you read what graywolf typed on the Renegade Forums saying this very thing would happen and it did. You have alot to think about when your in the most terrible place ever. A place more terrible than you could ever even imagine. I bet you guys could imagine some pretty terrible things too. It's forever 100 years means nothing to forever. A billion years means nothing to forever 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,992 years means nothing to forever. I know you read this and looked for ways to tell me Im wrong, Im sure someones going to say this is a fear tactic. It's true I want you to be afraid of hell I don't want anyone to go there. Im done posting and debating about religion. Im not even going to come back and read any replays to this. So go ahead bash this all you want talk about how God is bs. Keep believing that if you don't believe in God or heaven and hell it wont affect you. I honestly feel so bad for you people. Ok peace.
A lot of people believe that hate is the worst of human emotions. I don't believe that is true- I think that the worst emotion a human being is capable of is not hate, but pity. Why pity? You can hate a person and still see them as your equal; this is not true of pity. Pity is not a form of sympathy; a sympathetic person still views those with whom they sympathize as equals. Pity is a devious one. Pity carries with it a feeling of inequality. It is impossible to pity another person without looking down upon that person as somehow inferior, or as lacking something that you believe you hold that gives you a higher status than theirs. It is also one of the most difficult emotions to not feel when faced with a debate like this one- many are inclined to pity those who do not hold their beliefs, as their faith tells them that those people are destined for doom. You do not seek to understand why people have chosen to believe what they believe, yet you condemn their beliefs as false and dangerous and urge them to accept yours as right and true. How is it possible for you to pity what you do not even try to understand?
I said I wouldnt post here again but I just don't want to be misunderstood. I dont look down on anyone say what you wil but I don't. I can feel sorry and bad for someone and not look down on them. I don't care what and why people believe the things they do. All I know is what they believe is wrong and I wished they knew the truth. Thats it im not going to read anymore responses.
NukeIt15 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 15:44 A lot of people believe that hate is the worst of human emotions. I don't believe that is true- I think that the worst emotion a human being is capable of is not hate, but pity.... That is quite insightful. There's a reason the phrase "I pity you" is used a arguments a lot. In addition, its message is very clear, not perhaps to the one who says it, but to the receiver. It can very effectively make one feel they're somehow bad or insufficient. You might as well say "You ain't got what it takes". People should be careful with this word, it's quite high on the list of worst things to say to someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_monster
I think GrayWolf just said it right there guys. I find it funny, and ironic, how some people who try to bash Christianity as much as they can believe in evolution. I think anyone can add on to what I just said.
icedog90 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 17:27 I think GrayWolf just said it right there guys. I find it funny, and ironic, how some people who try to bash Christianity as much as they can believe in evolution. I think anyone can add on to what I just said. GrayWolf said he feels bad because he believes something bad will happen to people who don't believe in the Christian God. Nobody is trying to argue about what he feels, if that's what you're trying to say. Unless you're talking about some earlier post of his. And what you just said basically starts this whole discussion from the beginning again, so yeah there's a lot to add :S There are better places to debate at though, with much more resourceful comments and facts based on the bible and other religious material, and scientific facts. I suppose this is pretty pointless, I didn't really gain anything new from all this. *Goes to hunt knowledge elsewhere*
Yeah, there IS much to add. I didn't mean people were trying to argue with what he said. I was just acknowledging it.
"There is no god. All this you see around you? *opens up arms in panoramic movement* It's all absolutely pointless. YOU are absolutely pointless." How depressing. Why would I want to be an atheist?
j_ball430 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:32 IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:19 If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again. Oh, please. The stupid, and pathetic, "he should have saved himself" argument. Ever think about maybe what he did was for the greater good? Police officers can "save themselves" in certain situations, but they put others above themselves. This is the same concept. Jesus suffered two deaths that day. He suffered an eternal death in Hell and the human physical death. THAT is the sacrifice. He suffered the eternal death, so we don't have to. Not just that he died because people didn't like him. THAT is why he didn't "save himself". HA! but he did save himself, didnt he, he rose up a few days later.
Hydra wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 18:36 "There is no god. All this you see around you? *opens up arms in panoramic movement* It's all absolutely pointless. YOU are absolutely pointless." How depressing. Why would I want to be an atheist? I don't know how I deal with it day in day out. It's cutting me up inside that it just hurts so bad. I almost want to abandon all reasoning for living it makes me cry :'( Yeah. Depressing.
IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 20:53 j_ball430 wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:32 IWarriors wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:19 If he was "god" then am sure any right minded god/person w/e wouldnt had allowed them to kill him, and if he did allow it to happan, whats the point? hes god, he cant die.. so hes not giving up on anything as he has the power to return time and time again. Oh, please. The stupid, and pathetic, "he should have saved himself" argument. Ever think about maybe what he did was for the greater good? Police officers can "save themselves" in certain situations, but they put others above themselves. This is the same concept. Jesus suffered two deaths that day. He suffered an eternal death in Hell and the human physical death. THAT is the sacrifice. He suffered the eternal death, so we don't have to. Not just that he died because people didn't like him. THAT is why he didn't "save himself". HA! but he did save himself, didnt he, he rose up a few days later. Eh, not really. It just more or less shows that he conquered death. He came back to life after being in Heaven. How would that be saving himself? Wouldn't he just be sending himself back into torment from paradise?
If there is no God, and this world is truly a mistake, then everything is meaningless. Humans are just useless machines whose only purpose in existance is to create more useless machines in a vain effort to sustain its own presense on this Earth. There is then no value in human life. No point to existance. Success, love, money, status; all are useless. There truly is no reason to live, knowing that all that you have will die with you. And atheists think we're the ones preaching fire and brim-stone.
There are many people who have, from time to time, been tempted to think for themselves -- who have found themselves questioning beliefs they inherited but really never examined. This is nowhere more apt to be the case than in the area of religious beliefs. Our religious beliefs came to us in a protective coating of age and respectability, like the invisible "force field" of science fiction. It takes a degree of intellectual courage to penetrate this penumbra of sanctity and inspect a belief on its own merits. Still, many people have done so. They have found themselves asking such questions as, how do I know that this book called the Bible is the supernaturally revealed and infallible word of God? How do I know there is even such a being as God? How does anybody know there is such a thing as immorality? When people begin seriously to raise questions of this sort, they find that their "faith", that is, their accustomed belief-patterns, seem increasingly insubstantial. To lose one's faith may seem, in prospect, like being turned out of a comfortable home and left to fend for oneself in a vast and trackless waste. Those with a persistent curiosity and adventurous spirit will never-the-less leave their cozy shelter and set out to learn for themselves what it is like "out there." Although their first steps may be taken "in fear and trembling," they begin to find that they are not alone. They discover stalwart companions. They learn, indeed that they are "compassed about" with a "cloud of witnesses." As their minds become strengthened by use, they begin to see what others have seen, that their "spiritual home" was in reality a prison; its walls were built of ignorance and fear, and reinforced by habit and custom. No one is kept in this prison but by oneself; it is a prison where every inmate is his or her jailer. Everyone, aware of it or not, already has the key that will unlock the door: the freedom to seek the truth. - From the book Secular Nation by Thomas Vernon === I have not read this book or know anything about the author, so don't get all ad-hominem on me. However, the point stands. When (and if) you realize that this life is all you have and there is no great reward or punishment after you die, you are freed. Freed from fearing that who you love may decide your ultimate fate, freed from fearing that enjoying harmless pleasures won't condemn you to the imaginary pits of hell... As a child, the idea that this God person was there was told to me by my mom. Neither of my parents made me go to church more than a time or two, though I have attended at least a dozen sermons in my lifetime and attended Vacation Bible school twice. But even as a pre-teen, the whole god thing never stuck with me. It seemed like a weird story. Little did I know at that point how even intelligent people fell for this stuff and how deep this belief that some people have has gone back through the ages. Only recently did I really come to see clearly how religion was created by man to control people en masse, and as I discover people who I thought were intelligent being so the opposite, and so closed minded about religion. It makes sense, of course. What better way to cement your religion than to convince the followers that non-believers are EVIL and are going to hell. Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and shit. Such a beautiful near-perfect manipulation I see before me. I think less of you for falling for this shit, and you think less of me for not believing. What a beautiful situation that has been created, no?
Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:57 Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and s***. I never said this (nor do I wish to). Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:57 ...and you think less of me for not believing. I never said this (nor do I wish to).
Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:57 However, the point stands. When (and if) you realize that this life is all you have and there is no great reward or punishment after you die, you are freed. Freed from fearing that who you love may decide your ultimate fate, freed from fearing that enjoying harmless pleasures won't condemn you to the imaginary pits of hell... As a child, the idea that this God person was there was told to me by my mom. Neither of my parents made me go to church more than a time or two, though I have attended at least a dozen sermons in my lifetime and attended Vacation Bible school twice. But even as a pre-teen, the whole god thing never stuck with me. It seemed like a weird story. Little did I know at that point how even intelligent people fell for this stuff and how deep this belief that some people have has gone back through the ages. Only recently did I really come to see clearly how religion was created by man to control people en masse, and as I discover people who I thought were intelligent being so the opposite, and so closed minded about religion. It makes sense, of course. What better way to cement your religion than to convince the followers that non-believers are EVIL and are going to hell. Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and shit. Such a beautiful near-perfect manipulation I see before me. I think less of you for falling for this shit, and you think less of me for not believing. What a beautiful situation that has been created, no? How am I freed? That's just an athiest's view on our faith. The same would go for a Republican saying that a Democrat would be freed from propaganda if they denounced their liberal stand-points and embraced the right's views. It's purely opinion to claim that one is "freed". I feel freed knowing that I have some higher power willing to die for my well being and eternal safety. It has nothing to do with who I love or treat nicely. Religion is evil. There is no other way around it. It IS to control people in masses and force them to abide by certain guidelines. That's not what Christianity is SUPPOSED to be about, but it has just become another religion. True faith, however, is not bound by these restrictions. I have no longer allowed myself to be bound by a religion. I follow the Christian faith. Why does this all have to be a trap? Why can't this be something truthful? Just because YOU feel that something is right, doesn't mean it is. Just because I feel that something is right, doesn't mean it is, and to look down at me because I disagree with you? That's ignorance. Why would I look down at you for not believing this? I think differently, but that doesn't mean that I think I'm a better person for thinking my way. If anything, I'll think less of you for sinking down to that level of immaturity and closed-mindedness.
Who said the world is a "mistake" and how does it make life useless? 2000 years ago houses were made of stone and wood and you got around on horseback and it'd take years to travel anywhere. Now we can talk to a person across the world over teamspeak with a group of other people all over the place as if we're talking on a telephone. People 2000 years ago would be marveled at the place we live now. The universe is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% discovered. Why don't we just say it'll become useless when it's 100% discovered, since that's humanity's largest goal. And I'm sure it either won't happen or won't happen for a very long time. So there ya go. Besides, the one thing we really haven't mastered in travel is space. So there's A LOT to live for. Are you saying the only reason we humans are living right now is to get into heaven? If that's true, than what is the point of even advancing on Earth? It'd be the same if you were an Atheist. Besides, i just don't bother with religion or don't care at all about it in my life. My parents taught me moral rights or wrong, not God. Frankly, that's all I've ever needed.
Berkut wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 20:53 If there is no God, and this world is truly a mistake, then everything is meaningless. Humans are just useless machines whose only purpose in existance is to create more useless machines in a vain effort to sustain its own presense on this Earth. There is then no value in human life. No point to existance. Success, love, money, status; all are useless. There truly is no reason to live, knowing that all that you have will die with you. And atheists think we're the ones preaching fire and brim-stone. Now you are understanding, humans are here for one thing only, to have sex and have have many babys. There is value in human life cause we make it so, we teach our kids to know that and respect life and our point in existance is to have babys, quiet simple and easy to understand, you dont need a god to believe in these things. Just cause a person is an atheist, it doesnt mean they think when they die, the life will be over, some believe that your soul gets reborn into a other life in a endless chain.
Berkut wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 02:45 Catholics do not believe that acknowledging yourself as a sinner is necessary, and that doing good deeds will get you into Heaven (directly contradicting the Bible). They also pray to Mary (idolizing), chant (God said don't do that!), and consider the Pope to be holy (for our righteousness is that of filthy rags-- sound familiar?). Whoah, where did all that come from? I'm not a Catholic! Creepy... PS: Issues not related to Renegade should be posted in the "Politics" sub-forum. You're a fucking moron. I'm Catholic, and next time you plan on bashing a religion study it for a few years dipshit. Till then shut the fuck up.
The world isn't a mistake. The world just is. Humans are just animals who have been burdened by consciousness. I see ants walking around and to me their lives don't have a whole lot of meaning, but that doesn't seem to stop the ants. Perhaps its this inability of any entity to have an objective view of itself that keeps them from understanding what purpose or meaning, if any, their life entails. I probably have different views than most people on this forum (partially from substances imbibed), but that's just the point. We all have different views. To me, that basically discredits everyone's view. Thinking that you know the answer is ludicrous because statistically it's almost impossible that you're right. When it comes down to it, as my father once said, whether or not there is a god isn't really relevant, since obviously there can be no concrete statements made about it.
DarkDemin wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 23:26 [Random slew of swearing.] Catholic indeed.
Crimson wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:57 There are many people who have, from time to time, been tempted to think for themselves -- who have found themselves questioning beliefs they inherited but really never examined. This is nowhere more apt to be the case than in the area of religious beliefs. Our religious beliefs came to us in a protective coating of age and respectability, like the invisible "force field" of science fiction. It takes a degree of intellectual courage to penetrate this penumbra of sanctity and inspect a belief on its own merits. Still, many people have done so. They have found themselves asking such questions as, how do I know that this book called the Bible is the supernaturally revealed and infallible word of God? How do I know there is even such a being as God? How does anybody know there is such a thing as immorality? When people begin seriously to raise questions of this sort, they find that their "faith", that is, their accustomed belief-patterns, seem increasingly insubstantial. To lose one's faith may seem, in prospect, like being turned out of a comfortable home and left to fend for oneself in a vast and trackless waste. Those with a persistent curiosity and adventurous spirit will never-the-less leave their cozy shelter and set out to learn for themselves what it is like "out there." Although their first steps may be taken "in fear and trembling," they begin to find that they are not alone. They discover stalwart companions. They learn, indeed that they are "compassed about" with a "cloud of witnesses." As their minds become strengthened by use, they begin to see what others have seen, that their "spiritual home" was in reality a prison; its walls were built of ignorance and fear, and reinforced by habit and custom. No one is kept in this prison but by oneself; it is a prison where every inmate is his or her jailer. Everyone, aware of it or not, already has the key that will unlock the door: the freedom to seek the truth. - From the book Secular Nation by Thomas Vernon === I have not read this book or know anything about the author, so don't get all ad-hominem on me. However, the point stands. When (and if) you realize that this life is all you have and there is no great reward or punishment after you die, you are freed. Freed from fearing that who you love may decide your ultimate fate, freed from fearing that enjoying harmless pleasures won't condemn you to the imaginary pits of hell... As a child, the idea that this God person was there was told to me by my mom. Neither of my parents made me go to church more than a time or two, though I have attended at least a dozen sermons in my lifetime and attended Vacation Bible school twice. But even as a pre-teen, the whole god thing never stuck with me. It seemed like a weird story. Little did I know at that point how even intelligent people fell for this stuff and how deep this belief that some people have has gone back through the ages. Only recently did I really come to see clearly how religion was created by man to control people en masse, and as I discover people who I thought were intelligent being so the opposite, and so closed minded about religion. It makes sense, of course. What better way to cement your religion than to convince the followers that non-believers are EVIL and are going to hell. Then if you hear common sense from us atheists you say the devil is speaking through us and shit. Such a beautiful near-perfect manipulation I see before me. I think less of you for falling for this shit, and you think less of me for not believing. What a beautiful situation that has been created, no? If you haven't read the book, why are you quoting from it? [/NITPICKING] I feel sad for you, Crimson. Notice I did not say "I pity you" (I don't view you as somehow lower than me simply because we disagree) but that I feel sad for you. I feel sad that you have such a cynical view of not only all Christians but religion in general. I'm sorry so many of my colleagues in Christ have failed to live up to the name "Christian"; though they may call themselves "Christian," many are hardly worthy of the title. I'm sorry you think that the Christian faith is simply a tool to be used to "control the masses"; Christianity has a rough history, I'll give you that. I'm sorry so many of the terrible news stories that you hear about often have to do with terrible "Christians" committing some bad act against children or whatever. But what I'm really sorry for is that you haven't seen all the good that Christianity is doing and has accomplished. How many Christians, who wanted to provide a medical service to the people in the area REGARDLESS of who they are or what they believe, have started and successfully maintained hospitals throughout the United States? How many chruches sponsor mission trips to places overseas to help out with orphanages and areas of natural disaster? How many Christians have donated millions upon millions of their own, private money to charities that OTHER Christians have already started? How many Christians and Christian groups have risked their own lives to travel to Iraq to help the struggling country rebuild its infrastructure after so many years of tyrannical rule? How many Christians have started group therapy organizations for recovering alcoholics or drug abusers? How many Christians have created similar groups/permanent centers for teenagers with crisis pregnancies? How many Christians have started homeless shelters and food drives for people living on the street? How many Christians have helped those same people living on the street, who acknowledge that they've royally messed, to get back onto their feet? I could make my fingers tired from writing so many examples of exemplary Christians who have done extraordinary things to help their fellow men for a cause that, you say, is used only to control them. Is it naiveté to look up at the sky at night and see the infinite complexity and order to the universe and not think that someone or something set it all into motion? How could our vast and great universe possibly have come about to exist if something didn't create it in the first place? Is it childish to believe that we humans have some higher value than the cow squeeze and slaughtered pig meat that I ate on my pizza tonight (cheese and pepperoni, just to clarify )? Like I said before, I'm sorry for the actions of my fellow "Christians" who judge and condemn others to Hell when it most certainly isn't their place. Though they are obviously too abraisive in their tactics and don't know how to present their ideas in a tactful way, they really want the best for everyone. What they mean by, "Believe in Jesus, or you're going to Hell!" is that they want you to experience the most beautiful gift God has ever given to mankind. They don't want you to be left behind in the dust when the taxi to heaven drives off. Though they may not say it in the best way possible, they really want the best for you. It's the same way with the advice given in the Bible says, "Don't do thus and such." Sin isn't an incarnation of Christians to keep people from enjoying "harmless pleasures" (in fact, you'll have to tell me which "harmless pleasures" the Bible prohibits, because I'm not immediately aware of 'em (though I have a good idea what you might mean, which I will address in a second)). When you think about it logically (of which many atheists are fans), it makes very good sense not to do many of the things the Bible says not to do. Take adultery for example. The Bible supports sex within the context of marriage fully ("Be fruitful and multiply (or something or other)" Proverbs, I think (never said I was good with Bible verses )). Sex outside of marriage? How can you fully devote your soul's entire love to your spouse if you have an affair every once in a while? Now examine premarital sex. First of all, humanity's desire for sex is insatiable--no one can get enough of it, am I right? So if I go out every night and try to pick up a one-night stand, first of all, that's gonna cost me an arm and a leg in drinks and mickeys, and second of all, how is that going to fulfill me? I'm just going to go out the next night, and the night after, and so on. And plus, with each additional woman I bang, that increases my chances of catching a VD or having an unwanted child on my hands. Why would I want to have sex when I am neither financially, spiritually, nor maturely ready to have a child? You can probably apply that logic to whatever other "harmless pleasures" you can think of. As you can see, the Bible doesn't tell us we can't enjoy ourselves; it's just showing us how we can live a life that will fulfill our every need (whether it's a spiritual, financial, relational, even sexual need). Some people spend their entire lives searching for their own truth, like trying to drill for an oil well in a number of different places. They'd like to say that they've struck oil so many times even though the best they can find is tar. We Christians believe we have struck oil. We believe our well is bursting out of the ground, and we feel it is our duty to try to supply everyone with as much of it as we can. They can obviously reject us, as so many have done, and be superficially satisfied with their barrel of tar, yet deep down, something inside of them tells them that their tar isn't the oil they're looking for. (I probably could have expanded upon and elaborated that analogy a little more extensively if only it weren't 2:00 in the morning....) So please don't chastize us for only doing what everyone else, including yourself, has done--proclaiming we have struck oil and that our truth is absolute. How "open-minded" is it to say we haven't struck our oil when you haven't even begun drilling yet (that was a figurative "you," by the way)?
Hydra wrote on Sun, 16 July 2006 01:03 The Bible supports sex within the context of marriage fully ("Be fruitful and multiply (or something or other)" Proverbs, I think (never said I was good with Bible verses )). I'm pretty good with verses. It's GENESIS 1:28: "Be fruitful and multiply" I can't help but keep coming back to this topic even though I told myself stop going there its a waste of time, and I know I'm not really getting anywhere from being here. Hydra that was a long read but it was well well well worth it.
Hydra wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 23:03 If you haven't read the book, why are you quoting from it? [/NITPICKING] Because I like the passage that I quoted and felt it appropriate to the discussion... Quote: I feel sad for you, Crimson. Notice I did not say "I pity you" (I don't view you as somehow lower than me simply because we disagree) but that I feel sad for you. I feel sad that you have such a cynical view of not only all Christians but religion in general. I didn't come of it lightly. I have done a LOT of reading of various peoples' ideas. Quote: I'm sorry so many of my colleagues in Christ have failed to live up to the name "Christian"; though they may call themselves "Christian," many are hardly worthy of the title. One of the many reasons I don't believe in an omniscient, omnibenevolent god that would allow such horrible acts to be carried out in his name. Quote: But what I'm really sorry for is that you haven't seen all the good that Christianity is doing and has accomplished. You're wrong about that. Since religion is a tool to control the masses, it makes them moral and in many cases, less selfish. The good acts are just a result of that. Quote: Is it naiveté to look up at the sky at night and see the infinite complexity and order to the universe and not think that someone or something set it all into motion? Absolutely. Quote: How could our vast and great universe possibly have come about to exist if something didn't create it in the first place? This is called the "God of the Gaps", or "Argument from ignorance" argument. Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it's unexplainable. Just because you don't know how something came to be doesn't mean God did it. As science discovers more and more, there is less and less room for god to operate. One day, generations after us, belief in a god will probably be only in the history books, just as the ancient Greek and Roman gods. Quote: Is it childish to believe that we humans have some higher value than the cow squeeze and slaughtered pig meat that I ate on my pizza tonight (cheese and pepperoni, just to clarify )? Not necessarily childish, but we don't necessarily have more value. It's the height of egotism to believe this all exists solely for us who inhabit such a tiny fraction of the universe. Quote: Like I said before, I'm sorry for the actions of my fellow "Christians" who judge and condemn others to Hell when it most certainly isn't their place. I don't really care. If hell exists, it's not their place or duty to decide whether I go there or not. Quote: Though they are obviously too abraisive in their tactics and don't know how to present their ideas in a tactful way, they really want the best for everyone. They don't know what's best for me or anyone else. Quote: What they mean by, "Believe in Jesus, or you're going to Hell!" is that they want you to experience the most beautiful gift God has ever given to mankind. What gift? What are you TALKING about? This doesn't make ANY sense to me. Quote: They don't want you to be left behind in the dust when the taxi to heaven drives off. Though they may not say it in the best way possible, they really want the best for you. They assume this god exists when they think this is the best for me. I understand that it's more comfortable to imagine that something awaits you when you die, but the odds are good that you'll just be worm food. Quote: When you think about it logically (of which many atheists are fans), it makes very good sense not to do many of the things the Bible says not to do. Have you read "Kissing Hank's Ass" yet? Just because some of the advice in the bible is good, it doesn't immediate make the whole book good AND the holy word of this diety. Quote: We Christians believe we have struck oil. We believe our well is bursting out of the ground, and we feel it is our duty to try to supply everyone with as much of it as we can. They can obviously reject us, as so many have done, and be superficially satisfied with their barrel of tar, yet deep down, something inside of them tells them that their tar isn't the oil they're looking for. And yet you don't even see that when you have been told over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that you must share this gift with everyone, that you have become a mouthpiece and a tool for this organization and you have been led to believe that brainwashing other people into your big cult is a GOOD thing for us? Ugh! Quote: So please don't chastize us for only doing what everyone else, including yourself, has done--proclaiming we have struck oil and that our truth is absolute. How "open-minded" is it to say we haven't struck our oil when you haven't even begun drilling yet (that was a figurative "you," by the way)? I don't get that analogy. It's like we all read a book and you decided it was true and I decided it was a fanciful fairy tale. Could I be wrong? Sure! But at least I am very thankful that I have been raised in such a way that I can be open minded and make my own decision. If you were told this whole story of Jesus and god as your age having never heard of it before, you would think it was a total load of bullshit, too. It just doesn't make any sense at all. I am not any more or less happy than a god-believer anyway. Mankind has created literally thousands of deities in our lifetime. You don't believe in any of them but one. I just believe in one less than you. Once you understand the reason that you don't accept any of these other gods, you might begin to understand why I don't accept yours.
Quote: One of the many reasons I don't believe in an omniscient, omnibenevolent god that would allow such horrible acts to be carried out in his name. Free Will. Humanity allows it to happen. Here's a ficticious case study for you though: There is someone in the world who is killing indiscriminately, and without mercy. Now, you're God. What do you do? Do you stop him, or allow him to continue? Quote: As science discovers more and more, there is less and less room for god to operate. Not true. That just means that less and less can be directly attributable to God. As for the rest of the stuff, all that is doing is "disproving" Religion, (ie. our current explination of God). Nothing has been stated that would disprove the existance of God himself. Interesting take on the "oil" aspect though. The idea of someone pushing their ideals onto others because it is good for them. Kind of sounds like someone who, I don't know, support the "good" that is being done in Iraq, by "forcing" the ideals of America on them.
Crimson, you continuously make distinctions about people who can think freely and people who beleive in organized religion. Neither of my parents are religious. I never went to church as a kid, I've faced no prosecution or pressure towards any denomination. I told my parents I wanted to attend CCD and did so, I'm a confirmed Catholoic. I've thought about it and continue to to this day. When someone "Is capable of rationally thinking", they do not automatically shed religious beleifs. You seem to make the case that only people too stupid to think for themselves are religious. The fact that so many people here are sharing their impressions and interperetations of religion show this. If you ask my impression of heaven, my impression of salvation and sin, they will be different from another Catholic and another Christian. Now you might say well one of you listened more closely to the "Propoganda". No, as you receive information and learn, you process it differently than another. The old cliche saying "One mans heaven is anothers hell", is very true. If you've ever seen the episode of the Twilight Zone I'm about to describe then you know what I'm talking about. A man who spent his life gambling, dies. He wakes up in a very nice room and meets a old man looking like a butler. The man explains that here he can have anything he wants, and if he wants to gamble he can go right ahead. The man tests it out, and wins, and he plays games all day and wins every time. He soon realizes he can't lose. He always wins no matter what. After a while he begins to lose his sanity because he can't lose at anything, no matter how hard he tries. The chance was the most important aspect to him and because he could never lose, there was no chance, there was just winning. Finally he goes to the old man and says "I hate it here in heaven!" and the old man says "This isn't heaven" MWAHAHAHAHA. The point of this all is just that Heaven is described as paradise and Hell is described as an anti-paradise. It's up to you to fill in those blanks, how Jesus was ressurrected in the cave? That's up to you wether you picture it as him materializing in the cave on that morning or him hanging up on the cross with a respawn timer and then him spawning behind the rock, walking up to the PT in the wall and pressing E, going to characters and buying a Jesus. Just because someone beleives in organized religion do not discount them as a brainwashed idiot. I notice every single time you defend your stance on organized religion you say something about people thinking less of you because of it. I don't think any less of you because you don't beleive in organized religion, I do however think less of you because you view every follower of organized religion as a brainwashed zombie. I can tell you, there are zombies. I'm not one, and I'm sure a lot of other people on here sharing their beleifs aren't zombies either. I would wager some people are even learning more about their own faith here, discussing it and answering the challenges from others. After all, you learn through "practise". Ha, bad pun. Practising Religion.
I'll admit, I was pretty much brainwashed as far as faith goes up until I started college. This was where I started to question things. I still question things until this day, but I still never lose my faith. It's not because I'm too stupid to let go. It's because I've found that science and the Bible DO work together, as long as you don't take the Old Testament too literally. I believe those stories to be true, but told in a different way that can contradict science if the symbolism isn't stripped from the stories.
Think relativity. If god was zooming around at a speed close to that of the speed of light the first "7 days" could have taken billions of Earth years.
Honestly, though... when you are at the level that I am on all this stuff, those who bind themselves to one belief are so significantly less open minded than those who only put this "god" as one of many possibilities. And I can explain this: Given the two broad unanswered questions that religion attempts to answer: - How did we get here/who put us here/where did the universe come from? - What happens to us when we die? Do we have a soul or spirit? There are basically infinite possibilities of answers to either of these questions. There may even be more than one actual true factual answer. So, when you think about these questions, you can come up with theories ranging from "the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure" to "we are actually existing as part of another world larger than us and we are just atoms to them". But, if you limit yourself to setting "God" as a constant, then you are severely limiting yourself and closing your mind to the possibility that there is not and never was the Christian god Yahweh/Jehovah. Hence, you ARE in fact closed minded if you're not seriously putting your faith the the ultimate challenge of logic and question. However, if you consider the very real possibility that there's a reason so many people have decided not to believe in Yahweh, and really question this whole "story of Jesus", you just might find more flaws in that logic than you ever thought could exist. The biggest hurdle, however, is the negative view that atheists have in society. All you theists have been told all your lives that atheists are going to hell for not believing and that people who go to hell are evil. The "logical" jump there is that we are evil and live our lives without regard for others, without morals, and without care of consequences. In reality, my life is vastly comparable to yours and wonderful things and bad things happen to me just like they happen to you. And I don't pray for things either way. Shocking, isn't it?
Crimson But, if you limit yourself to setting "God" as a constant, then you are severely limiting yourself and closing your mind to the possibility that there is not and never was the Christian god Yahweh/Jehovah. Hence, you ARE in fact closed minded if you're not seriously putting your faith the the ultimate challenge of logic and question. Those who blindly follow faith are closed-minded. That's not something that I disagree with. I continue to mold and shift my beliefs. However, I still remain a Christian. I have yet to see anything to prove me otherwise. I don't pretend that I know absolute truth, but to me... it is truth. Whether wrong or right, until I am proved wrong, it's what I'll stick to. I will also continue to challenge my faith. I will continue to question. I don't have to practice something to be open-minded. I accept that other things could be truth, but I've settled on one thing, and I'll stick to it. Just because I'm heterosexual doesn't necessarily mean I'm closed-minded to homosexuality. I don't practice it, but I'm certainly not going to say that heterosexuality is the ONLY way to live because it obviously isn't. Crimson However, if you consider the very real possibility that there's a reason so many people have decided not to believe in Yahweh, and really question this whole "story of Jesus", you just might find more flaws in that logic than you ever thought could exist. I know there's a reason. I just don't agree with it. I don't see the flaws in anything I believe. My beliefs aren't disproven, so how can you say that they're flawed? They may very well be, but to date... they're not. Crimson The biggest hurdle, however, is the negative view that atheists have in society. All you theists have been told all your lives that atheists are going to hell for not believing and that people who go to hell are evil. The "logical" jump there is that we are evil and live our lives without regard for others, without morals, and without care of consequences. In reality, my life is vastly comparable to yours and wonderful things and bad things happen to me just like they happen to you. And I don't pray for things either way. Shocking, isn't it? Would you care to not generalize about Christianity's view on the secular world? That's only the extremists' views.
Once again, that could only be seen as proof that RELIGION is wrong. RELIGION has nothing to do with GOD, other than it is humanities interpretation of him. It wouldn't matter if every religion ever invented, or that will be invented has gotten it wrong, it does nothing to prove or disprove the existance of God. God, under the assumption, for arugment's sake, that he exists will continue to exist, even after all religions of the world fail, and everyone turns athiest.
Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:45 Honestly, though... when you are at the level that I am on all this stuff, those who bind themselves to one belief are so significantly less open minded than those who only put this "god" as one of many possibilities. What level would that be? You appear to be relegating the global theists to a backwards state of thinking while elevating your atheism to some moral high point we need to correct ourselves to, and work towards.
j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 14:57 Those who blindly follow faith are closed-minded. That's not something that I disagree with. I continue to mold and shift my beliefs. However, I still remain a Christian. I have yet to see anything to prove me otherwise. I don't pretend that I know absolute truth, but to me... it is truth. Whether wrong or right, until I am proved wrong, it's what I'll stick to. I will also continue to challenge my faith. I will continue to question. I don't have to practice something to be open-minded. I accept that other things could be truth, but I've settled on one thing, and I'll stick to it. Just because I'm heterosexual doesn't necessarily mean I'm closed-minded to homosexuality. I don't practice it, but I'm certainly not going to say that heterosexuality is the ONLY way to live because it obviously isn't. If you claim the name of "christian" and discount this statement about homosexuality: "1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders." ; then you are mitigating the truth in the word and doubting God as competent enough to get the written word right. Heterosexuality is what was intended as evidenced by the very fact that the parts were made to go together to start and the paragraph above. Homosexuality was man's foolish deviation from the perfect ways of God, just as organized religion, robes, popes and everything else not stated in the bible is. Correct yourself to the truth, and return to what is right. Not what is popular.
I never said I accepted it as truth or even like it, but I'm certainly not going to slander homosexuality simply because it exists and discount that it IS a viable way of life. The correct one? Obviously not in my belief system, but the point still remains that I'm not closed-minded simply because I choose to adhere to one belief/lifestyle.
No one's asking you to slander anything. It's just plain incorrect thinking according to the bible. And to call it viable gives mental assent to that deviancy.
KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:37 No one's asking you to slander anything. It's just plain incorrect thinking according to the bible. And to call it viable gives mental assent to that deviancy. Yeah, it's incorrect, but it still doesn't make them any more of a sinner than anybody else. All sins are equal, so to claim moral high ground simply because we chose to believe that a heterosexual lifestyle is the correct one is false and a sin in itself. Not that I'm saying that it's okay because we all sin, anyways, but it still doesn't make them any worse than us. I know that's not what you're saying, though.
j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:42 KIRBY-098 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:37 No one's asking you to slander anything. It's just plain incorrect thinking according to the bible. And to call it viable gives mental assent to that deviancy. Yeah, it's incorrect, but it still doesn't make them any more of a sinner than anybody else. All sins are equal, so to claim moral high ground simply because we chose to believe that a heterosexual lifestyle is the correct one is false and a sin in itself. Not that I'm saying that it's okay because we all sin, anyways, but it still doesn't make them any worse than us. I know that's not what you're saying, though. It's not my moral highground I'm promoting. It's GOD's. If we give mental assent to one sin, it becomes easy to start mitigating the rest of them. Where do you draw the line?
Keep in mind that there is a difference in the acceptance of the lifestyle/person and the sexual act itself. You can be tolerant the person and their choice of lifestyle, and that is what Religion is teaching. The sexual act is what is prohibited by religion, not the lifestyle per se.
Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:45 All you theists have been told all your lives that atheists are going to hell for not believing and that people who go to hell are evil. So you know everything about all of us? No one ever told me my father is going to hell, and I certainly don't believe he will. If anyone in my family ends up in hell it'll be me. I'm a horrible human being. Some theists don't even believe in hell. Your generalizations keep betraying your ignorance on these subjects every time you post. When you say something like "I just believe in one less god than you" to a Christian you are claiming to believe in -1 gods. Christians don't believe in any god at all. That's a polytheist concept, not a monotheist one. You keep talking about how you're better than the rest of us, but you don't even know what you're saying. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read stuff like this.
j_ball430 wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 12:57 Would you care to not generalize about Christianity's view on the secular world? That's only the extremists' views. Extremists? In a 1999 poll, 48% of Americans said they would not consider voting for an Atheist. Some dictionaries offer an alternate definition of Atheist as “wicked.” The Boy Scouts membership form says, “no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.” How are people supposed to know that Atheists in fact do grow up to be the best kinds of American citizens every day — if we aren't visible? Atheists of Silicon Valley is reclaiming the A-word in our community by encouraging local Atheists to come out of the closet and be open with friends, co-workers, neighbors and family. We're standing up and speaking out. 14% of Americans and 19% of Californians identify themselves as some kind of non-believer. We may be a minority, but we're sizable and growing. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, Americans who answered "none" when asked to identify their religion numbered 29.4 million in 2001, more than double the 14.3 million in 1990. - From www.godlessgeeks.com NeoSaber You keep talking about how you're better than the rest of us, but you don't even know what you're saying. I never said better. I guarantee it. Better is far to general a word for this situation. I can't remember when I wasn't an atheist (except when I dabbled in agnosticism). And I never said my "level" and specified that it's a level above or below yours. It's just my level. The amount of time, effort, and thought I put into it. I define a supreme being/deity as a variable in my equation, whereas you guys seem to want to define him as a constant, and anything that doesn't fit that constant is simply rejected rather than considered. I believe that's the very definition of closed-mindedness if I'm not mistaken. Like I said before, I have been to churches. I've heard the sermons. I've felt very uncomfortable and embarrassed as people bowed to their knees and made a scene of themselves in the pews, because whatever they felt or pretended to feel just simply wasn't there for me. I have never read the bible and probably never will. But I have had one experience that challenged my lack of faith. It will just take more of them to change my mind. I'm not holding out hope. NeoSaber Your generalizations keep betraying your ignorance on these subjects every time you post. When you say something like "I just believe in one less god than you" to a Christian you are claiming to believe in -1 gods. Christians don't believe in any god at all. That's a polytheist concept, not a monotheist one. I'm not sure how I can "betray my ignorance" but you are missing the point. The funny part is that I know you are smarter than that, so you're just picking apart my words because you can't refute the actual argument. Care to try again? Let me make this really really clear for you so that you can comprehend, ok? You do not believe in the ancient Greek gods. You know that Helios doesn't cart the sun across the sky. You know that Thor doesn't throw lightning bolts down. You disbelieve in all these other gods that have been created by man. I just disbelieve in a little bit more than you disbelieve. Is that clear enough for you? I hope I didn't leave any other lingual oddities in there for you to pounce on to dodge the issue.
Crimson wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:24 I define a supreme being/deity as a variable in my equation, whereas you guys seem to want to define him as a constant, and anything that doesn't fit that constant is simply rejected rather than considered. I believe that's the very definition of closed-mindedness if I'm not mistaken. ENOUGH WITH THE GENERALIZATIONS! Where do you get this from that we just simply reject it? Have any of us in this thread implied that we take the Bible literally? Every single word? I haven't seen it, so stop generalizing. If I'm not mistaken, I've even said I agree with the Big Bang Theory. What's funny is that you're trying to call it closed-mindedness because "we" reject something that doesn't fit this "constant" you claim we define, yet you think less of us because of what we believe. Who is rejecting what?
j_ball430 wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 11:01 Have any of us in this thread implied that we take the Bible literally? Every single word? I haven't seen it, so stop generalizing. If I'm not mistaken, I've even said I agree with the Big Bang Theory. I do. It's the inspired word of God. What's in there is EXACTLY what he intended to be. If he can create matter and energy, he sure can make sure his word is infallible. There may be metaphors parables figurative language and the like used as teaching instruments (parable of the seeds for example), but what's in there belongs in there, and is inerrant. Edit: Ms. Korza, if not for anything else than just understanding christian theology better, I recommend an anonymous online bible study like the following: http://www.netbiblestudy.net/
To not believe it means my God is so incompent that men can usurp his will. They cannot. http://www.netbiblestudy.net/new_page_21.htm
mrpirate wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:26 ^ Yikes.