Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
Little "trial" on n00bstories servers - might be of general interest
Tonight we tweaked our objects.ddb to move the aircraft and light vehicles to medium armor. The result is that ramjets do about half the damage they did before. I am really liking the change but we're going to run it for a week or so and see what people think. So, even if you don't normally play on our server, you might want to consider giving it a shot just this week to see how you like it, and who knows? Maybe it will spread to others.
Re: Little "trial" on n00bstories servers - might be of general interest
I recently edited Crimson's server configuration presets and eliminated a lot of unbalanced issues with the game on her server. Of course there's a few problems here and there, but the way it works now has a lot of people very happy (especially myself since I can actually fly an Orca or drive a Hum-vee without blowing up in two seconds from Havoc\Sakura n00b cannon fire) with the server so far. Changes: Hum-vee, MRLS, Buggy, Artillery, Orca, Apache, Transport Helicopter - all those units have CnC_Vehicle_Medium armor now. This reduces "sniper" damage by 75 to 80% while still allowing basic infantry to damage them reasonably. "Snipers" are no longer fearless cretins that think they're leet for destroying seven vehicles without any skill involved. Check out the game balance for yourself in the n00bstories server! It's very fluid and plays more like a C&C RTS game in terms of damage logic. It's pretty amazing, after four years, seeing Buggies and Hum-vees late into a level inside an enemy base without being decimated by a single soldier of either basic class or "sniper" class.
How the hell should we get orca's down then? :S The only thing an orca has to fear are snipers. You just made them invincible... Or mrls that stand on the other side of the map for that matter. And you don't need a buggy with medium armor because they have invented the apc for that purpose. I think this is a bad idea!
Awesome news, but I'd really like to see the n00bjet given just one shot per clip.
i think that hummvees and buggys should still have weak armor otherwise it'd be easy to rush and destroy some building really early in the game... not that people don't already do that but whatever.
Havocs still do about half their former damage so they're not invincible. Like I said, this is a trial, so we'll have to see how it goes.
You ruined my Hourglass game plan!! You...magnificent...bastards! :d I'll probably hop in after a bit. I wanna see this "strange new world" you've managed. I bet it works a lot better, really... I wanna see SAM Sites in maps, given the change in aircraft armor, though.(If SAM Sites can be used like plain ol' turrets, I mean.) So...yeah. We'll see.
PackHunter wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 02:36 How the hell should we get orca's down then? :S The only thing an orca has to fear are snipers. You just made them invincible... Or mrls that stand on the other side of the map for that matter. And you don't need a buggy with medium armor because they have invented the apc for that purpose. I think this is a bad idea! Raveshaws, PIC Sydney, LCG Black Hands, Rifle Soldiers, SBH, Patch, Mobius\Mendoza and Officers are effective against aircraft. I think you're too used to "instant five shot kill on aircraft from anywhere at any time without fear of retribution" which is making your judgement very poor. The APC has CnC_Vehicle_Heavy, not _Medium. Go play it and see for yourself, the game works much better and isn't so ungodly awful in balancing.
You forgot about Sydney, ACK. And I mean "Tiberium Auto-Rifle" Sydney. Unless her kick-ass vehicle-demolishing(...okay, okay, vehicle-denting) shells got flacked with the armor change. They probably did, but she could take down an Apache faster than Patch could when the Apaches were Light Armored.
Aircraftkiller wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 04:11 PackHunter wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 02:36 How the hell should we get orca's down then? :S The only thing an orca has to fear are snipers. You just made them invincible... Or mrls that stand on the other side of the map for that matter. And you don't need a buggy with medium armor because they have invented the apc for that purpose. I think this is a bad idea! Raveshaws, PIC Sydney, LCG Black Hands, Rifle Soldiers, SBH, Patch, Mobius\Mendoza and Officers are effective against aircraft. I think you're too used to "instant five shot kill on aircraft from anywhere at any time without fear of retribution" which is making your judgement very poor. The APC has CnC_Vehicle_Heavy, not _Medium. Go play it and see for yourself, the game works much better and isn't so ungodly awful in balancing. I will.
The Critiques say: "Best server on renegade at the moment!" "Westwood would have done this if they were still around!" "WHAT THE FUCK? WHY DOESN'T MY RAMJET HURT YOU?"
As usual I'm against all changes to the usual game. I might try it out though. I follow packhunters reasoning. The "unfair" advantage of snipers against flying vehicles actually balanced the game! Flying vehicles are already truely mighty, even with snipers in the game. It's nice to test but it'll pass. I'm pretty sure of that.
I will come test for sure. This is something of great interest indeed.
EXdeath7 wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 05:08 "WHAT THE FUCK? WHY DOESN'T MY RAMJET HURT YOU?" ROFL!
Little bit old. :/(Black-Cell already has it for 2 years.) But it does balance the game and make it more fun.
We tried setting the armour to medium on our server (Jelly), If you set the armour to medium I found that if you got Arts set in postion and they where teched, GDI was pretty stuffed, unles it was a flying map, in which case Orcas and Apaches where to just to over the top. In the end we settled for increasing the armour and health on Art's, MRLS, Apaches, Orcas, and Transport Heli's. On Jelly it's fairly common to see a Transport loaded up making it into the opposition base, even if the opposition is sniping the shit out of it. We have been running this for around 7 or 8 months now, it's been a complete success.
dancer wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 07:44 We tried setting the armour to medium on our server (Jelly), If you set the armour to medium I found that if you got Arts set in postion and they where teched, GDI was pretty stuffed, unles it was a flying map, in which case Orcas and Apaches where to just to over the top. In the end we settled for increasing the armour and health on Art's, MRLS, Apaches, Orcas, and Transport Heli's. On Jelly it's fairly common to see a Transport loaded up making it into the opposition base, even if the opposition is sniping the shit out of it. We have been running this for around 7 or 8 months now, it's been a complete success. This actualy sounds better, then moving these vehs to medium armor. With such a change, It would be great to see the Transport Heli return on the n00bstories server.
Wow, I thought by now nobody was going to try this, can't wait until to get a chance to see how it works on the server. I too have reservations about the flying maps, since apart from snipers, there aren't any real anti-aircraft weapons. Even with snipers doing their usual damage, you can still completely own everything in an Orca/Apache, with a little intelligent use of cover. You may need to give the aircraft a clip instead of unlimited ammo, and change the bullet spray from being pinpoint accurate, if that's possible? If people start using the PIC/Railgun as anti-air this could work, but I think the aircraft might still need tweaking because they could end up way too powerful.
I intend to run a pretty close to Westwood default setup, so this relatively minor change was one I was willing to try out. So far, the server is still full so it must not be that horrible. And I find this change infinitely preferable to removing units altogether. In just the few games I've played, I've found that buggies now stay alive proportional to their cost, and both sides get the aircraft advantage. (Don't forget that Apaches take out Orcas, too.)
I think it would be better if it was made so that only snipers do less damage to vehicles. This could make the game balanced. But I think that this change, or your changes could make the 500 snipers a bit less useful, because they will be useful only against infantry now, so if almost everyone uses vehicles, they won't be able to do much. But I don't use snipers at all, so I don't really care. Off topic For past few days I have seen many noobs who shoot at my light tank with ramjet rife, which is waste of ammo, and pointless. Don't you think so?
So far I'm pretty happy with how this change has effected the server. I have lots of stats of game outcomes and I'm going to make sure that this change doesn't tilt the tide towards either team. I'm also hoping this minor change will fix that lame little problem where if you destroy the WF first on some maps, you end up losing.
Terminator 101 wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 16:38 For past few days I have seen many noobs who shoot at my light tank with ramjet rife, which is waste of ammo, and pointless. Don't you think so? Pointwh0res do this. Just stay in a corner and shoot vehicles with health bar in green with your uberjet. Then go back to refill, and back to your position again. How 1337.
Regarding that, the points received for doing that are proportionately too high. That's why they do it.
Ma1kel wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 07:37 Little bit old. :/(Black-Cell already has it for 2 years.) But it does balance the game and make it more fun. Having been banned from all Black-Cell severs (for something I didn't even do) for 2+ years now, I wouldn't know I havn't tried it out yet...to be honest I have some reservations about orcas and apaches with more armor, although I have always thought the transport chopper aka "flying coffin" definitely needed more. I have played in many games where all Nod had left was the Refinery for example, and the base was swarming with 2-3 Orcas that just wouldn't go away...after blasting one with almost all your clips from a minigunner they just land somewhere out of reach and quickly repair. Imagining that same scenario with more heavily armored (via medium armor setting) orcas seems a lot less fun, although I'm sure the people in the Orcas have a blast. What I would rather see is: 1. Ramjets do 50% less damage (and points) against light armor 2. Regular sniper rifle does little to zero damage to light armor 3. Reduced points for Ramjets versus other armor types (the points they get for shooting a mammoth is rediculous). 4. All rocket ammunition set to homing (to more easily hit air targets). 5. Transport Chopper aka Flying Coffin with more armror, either medium or even heavy. The transports are usless as-is, they get blown out of the sky before they can even reach the enemy base. Even though #1 would probably help this a lot, I would think that a transport chopper would have more than light armor anyhow. Thats just some ideas that I have always had, some of which are the same that Aircraftkiller has always preached. I don't really think increasing the armor of light vehicles is an answer, as I can easily envision games where a couple of pesky buggies or orcas can totally terrorize a base. Then again that is probably way fun for the vehicle drivers, so maybe it balances out. I will give it a play today or tonight and see if it changes my mind.
Considering a buggy costs 300 and an APC costs 500, the cost-to-lifespan ratio is much more realistic now. We played in Complex and you could actually take a buggy into the base and kill a solider or two before you were blown to bits. Before, you would blow up pretty much the instant you peeked your head into enemy sights. The change is so subtle it's amazing, really. The same units still do significant damage. Pics and Ravs still hurt them the same amount. Changing the armor ONLY affects snipers. Havocs do about half their previous damage to the previously-light-armored units and the 500-credit sniper rifles do less as well. As I've said many many many times, I don't want to run one of those servers with 498 modifications. This was a simple change. Don't knock it until you try it.
I'd rather get killed by an Orca I can shoot and defend myself against than be killed by seven Havocs sitting on top of the mesa on Walls Flying where they're completely out of reach and almost impossible to avoid.
To Crimson about your own team's aircraft being anti-air defence... unfortunately Orcas have a longer ranged chaingun than Apaches, which means that Orcas *should* always win in a dogfight. Would you be willing to change something like that? Otherwise it isn't fair to expect Nod to combat Orcas with Apaches. Also, does a team deserve to lose the game just because they lost the ability to make their own aircraft? Because that is the scenario you will be looking at in flying maps.
I played today a bit and I must say it was great (then again, I was the one in the orca ) edit: (read m1a1_abrams' post) The problem with apaches in my opinion is usually the fact that you can shoot straight forward with the minigun. When an orca and an apache are both as high as they can, the orca can shoot the apache no matter what it's facing, however the apache can't shoot the orca if it's not going away from it or facing the opposite direction.
I have a question btw... does this armour change the points given for shooting light vehicles with snipers? I was under the impression that the problem was the warhead. Also, even if it does change the amount of points given for hitting say an Orca, surely it's not going to change the amount for hitting say a Light Tank? And what about other problem weapons like the APC gun? Edit: I'm pretty sure the Orca has a longer range, try it out in a LAN game. I just did and if I buy both aircraft and try shooting a tank from various ranges, the Orca can hit from further away.
I have seen the armour increase on the buggies and aircraft and it does even out the field, BUT whats the point of making the aircraft pilots feel invincible? Every unit has a weakness, a drawback that makes it fun to use. With little/no fear of sniper retribution, and no fear of other vehicles, as all but the most n00bish can avoid a slow moving shell, the aircraft becomes premier camping vehicle. Also... Do any of you relize how fun it is to snipe a transport out of the sky and watch the little noddies plop on the ground, or better yet, shoot one dead as he falls? Dont take that away from us.
The problem is that it only take 5 rounds from a sniper to do it! I'm all for snipers being harmful to aircraft but 5 shots is RIDICULOUS for a vehicle that costs you 900 credits.
PackHunter wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 01:36 How the hell should we get orca's down then? :S The only thing an orca has to fear are snipers. You just made them invincible... Or mrls that stand on the other side of the map for that matter. And you don't need a buggy with medium armor because they have invented the apc for that purpose. I think this is a bad idea! Question : How exactly does a sniper take down copters and such? Yes, the question is on the newb-level.
Thank god you finally changed this stuff around. Now if ALL the servers would do it....
PackHunter wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 02:36 How the hell should we get orca's down then? :S The only thing an orca has to fear are snipers. You just made them invincible... Or mrls that stand on the other side of the map for that matter. And you don't need a buggy with medium armor because they have invented the apc for that purpose. I think this is a bad idea! You could try using the Apache...
xtaro wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 13:59 I have seen the armour increase on the buggies and aircraft and it does even out the field, BUT whats the point of making the aircraft pilots feel invincible? Every unit has a weakness, a drawback that makes it fun to use. With little/no fear of sniper retribution, and no fear of other vehicles, as all but the most n00bish can avoid a slow moving shell, the aircraft becomes premier camping vehicle. Also... Do any of you relize how fun it is to snipe a transport out of the sky and watch the little noddies plop on the ground, or better yet, shoot one dead as he falls? Dont take that away from us. USE A PIC/RAV...trust me...a pic or rav will do even more damage than a Havoc will without the armor increase...
I like this. But was the Orca's gun having a longer range than the Apache intentional?
It's weird if it was supposed to be like that, since the Apache had the chaingun in Tiberium Dawn, not the Orca.
Yeah, the orca definately has a better range of an apache. The apache can barely reach the corner of the WF when on the side, meanwhile the orca can reach the entrance of the Nod ref entrance about(From the strip side..). But you could say the same for Nod infantry vs GDI in that Nod's is severly weaker
There hasn't been a mass exodus from my server so it's good so far.
eew more armour i cant g3t no orkies no more, i hatechew i hatechew i hatechew!! no im not on my ren compuxxr rite now but ill be on n00bstories l8r tonite ps dont complain if i own big time in my "invincible orca" tats crimmies fault Oh yeah, i believe i am banned from n00bstories as xtaro, could i get unbanned to test the new armour??? Hmm i should post a tracking # so yall can follow my new comp on its way to my door.
TD wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 11:17 Terminator 101 wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 16:38 For past few days I have seen many noobs who shoot at my light tank with ramjet rife, which is waste of ammo, and pointless. Don't you think so? Pointwh0res do this. Just stay in a corner and shoot vehicles with health bar in green with your uberjet. Then go back to refill, and back to your position again. How 1337. Crimson wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 11:20 Regarding that, the points received for doing that are proportionately too high. That's why they do it. Wow, seriously? Is is going to be fixed in CP2 ? 400th post!!!
I wonder how people would like it on a server smaller than 40 players... (taking in consideration that ren was never made to be played with that much players, really :-S)
Goztow wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 18:25 I wonder how people would like it on a server smaller than 40 players... (taking in consideration that ren was never made to be played with that much players, really :-S) I agree, full 40 slot servers have nothing to do with Renegade anymore. But if you are going to host one, I guess hacks like these do actually make it more playable. I could just fly over to a group of snipers and take a few out and still get away with it. It actually was kinda fun. On a normal 20 slot server though, I don't know. With just one or 2 snipers shooting at you, I think you can get away with practically anything. Especially when you take a hotty with you and stop and repair.
PICs and Railguns. And Laser Chainguns, for that matter (especially Laser Chainguns). Not to mention the guns on Hummers, Buggies, and APCs. And let's not forget Rocket Launchers, if you know how to shoot (one would hope). Stop complaining about n00bjets getting the nerfbat against air vehicles. They're a crutch. Use something else and you'll quickly realize that you didn't really need them in the first place.
I played for a couple of hours tonight and it was fun. It does change some tactics though. For instance, on most base defense maps, a buggy/humvee can now penetrate the base. Also, there is no message telling players about the changes (like they would read it anyway heh), so some people were confused. on hourglass I got a buggy and someone said "wtf are you going to do with a BUGGY??", and I said "watch", and I managed to get to the base of the AGT, and they were like "wtf hax?" lol It was indeed nice to be able to drive a buggy and humvee for more than a few seconds, and my Orca still got n00bjetted from the sky, so they defnitely aren't invincible
Buggies could always reach the AGT if I remember correctly.
since the orca and apache are much faster than most unit(perhaps all?) in the game, i think the weak armor was better. The weapons power isn't that bad either.
I played 2-3 maps and it was not as bad as I initially thought it would be, the orcas were harder to kill but not impossible, but perhaps because of this topic, a larger number of people seemed to be using aircraft. I even saw a noddie transport rush on walls_flying, oh yes the buggy,humvee, and such were alot harder to destroy with basic infantry. Im willing to play it like that though... Gj Crimson
Goztow wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 16:25 I wonder how people would like it on a server smaller than 40 players... (taking in consideration that ren was never made to be played with that much players, really :-S) Considering when the game first game out, Westwood ran 3 or 4 40 player servers, I would say it WAS in fact made for that many players.
YSLMuffins wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 15:25 I like this. But was the Orca's gun having a longer range than the Apache intentional? As far as I know, the Orca doesn't have longer range. It's the position of ht gun, at the Orca it's at the nose. At the Apache it's under the body.
I think this is a good change, anything to lessen the numbers of n00bjetters is always a good thing
It would be awesome if at some point into the future the whole point/ranking system could be totally remastered.
And how does that relate to this topic?
Not sure, but it popped in my mind while reading all of this.
Ma1kel wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 11:13 YSLMuffins wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 15:25 I like this. But was the Orca's gun having a longer range than the Apache intentional? As far as I know, the Orca doesn't have longer range. It's the position of ht gun, at the Orca it's at the nose. At the Apache it's under the body. No, it shoots farther. Like i said before, the Apache can hardly shoot to the corner of the War Factory when on that side - as opposed to the orca, which can be on the strip side and be able to reach the front door to the refinery... a bit of a difference there, eh?
Kill the Orcas with a Light Tank and a rave, simple. I never had a problem killing snipers with an orca or apache. On Walls flying it's simple, just sneak up to the wall and repair if you need to and just kill them all from behind.
Hey your right, The Orca's heavymachine gun can shoot twice as far as the Apache's heavymachine gun. (Orca = 100 Apache = 50) Never new this, Maybe thats why I hate Apaches
Homey wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 16:43 Kill the Orcas with a Light Tank and a rave, simple. I never had a problem killing snipers with an orca or apache. On Walls flying it's simple, just sneak up to the wall and repair if you need to and just kill them all from behind. Pfft, easier said then done. And who did you kill? Obviously people who arent very good. Smart noobjet'rs will move around ALOT and take cover when you notice them. Besides. With the snipers ridiculus range, i can hit you on walls flying when you fly up from your base. THen what? You cant kill me from here. And there usually one team on the top of the wall anyways. And by the time you land to repair, it could already be dead. (3 or 4 snipers constantly shooting at one orca/apache and you cant do jack about it)
Well, GDI has an advantage in vehicles while Nod has an advantage in infantry... so I wouldn't be all THAT surprised...
Nod gets an invisible guy, but apart from that their infantry weapons are inferior to GDI. GDI basic rifle is more powerful than the Nod equivalent, Patch is waaay better than anything Nod has before they can afford 1000 credit characters... and even Sydney has a better gun than Raveshaw, because the larger hit zone is worth more in a fight that a *slightly* faster reload.
Sounds cool, It sure would nice to actualy be able to do a game were the map wasn't filled with n00bjets killing ur Helicopters in seconds. I'm sure this will give Helicopters more value than they already had. I'll check it out this weekend
m1a1_abrams wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 19:12 Patch is waaay better than anything Nod has before they can afford 1000 credit characters... Are you saying you would rather go against a tank with Patch instead of a Laser Chain Gunner?
cheekay77 wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 16:46 Homey wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 16:43 Kill the Orcas with a Light Tank and a rave, simple. I never had a problem killing snipers with an orca or apache. On Walls flying it's simple, just sneak up to the wall and repair if you need to and just kill them all from behind. Pfft, easier said then done. And who did you kill? Obviously people who arent very good. Smart noobjet'rs will move around ALOT and take cover when you notice them. Besides. With the snipers ridiculus range, i can hit you on walls flying when you fly up from your base. THen what? You cant kill me from here. And there usually one team on the top of the wall anyways. And by the time you land to repair, it could already be dead. (3 or 4 snipers constantly shooting at one orca/apache and you cant do jack about it) Yes you can, it's all about timing. I never had a problem doing it, even in clan games when there was 2 snipers on the wall.
Crimson wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 11:39 Goztow wrote on Wed, 08 February 2006 16:25 I wonder how people would like it on a server smaller than 40 players... (taking in consideration that ren was never made to be played with that much players, really :-S) Considering when the game first game out, Westwood ran 3 or 4 40 player servers, I would say it WAS in fact made for that many players. That must at least have given tons of FSP lag for the players back then... It only shows that it was easier for them to run 4 big servers than 10 smaller ones.
Blazer wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 21:25 m1a1_abrams wrote on Thu, 09 February 2006 19:12 Patch is waaay better than anything Nod has before they can afford 1000 credit characters... Are you saying you would rather go against a tank with Patch instead of a Laser Chain Gunner? I would!! ...if I were getting covering fire from at least two GDI tanks. XD Even so, I'm more likely to whip out a Sydney and go Tiberium Auto-Rifle instead. Works pretty well on light vehicles.(Which leads me back to my initial "I wonder if the Tiberium Auto-Rifle damage vs. Apaches and Buggies is dramatically shifted as well...")
Laser Chaingunner is worthless in practically all situations apart from your base being overrun by tanks and for some reason you don't have enough cash for a Raveshaw to shoot out of the windows. Even then a free Engineer with C4 is probably a better choice, or if you have to use a rifle-type weapon, a Stealth Black Hand (you'll get way more use out of it in the long run). Laser Chaingunner is just impossible to use effectively outside your base, because he has to be firing constantly to do the damage and that means a constant line of sight... which means constantly standing in the open. Wait a little longer and you get a Raveshaw who can hide behind terrain, then pop out for a second to do way more damage in one shot. Laser Chaingunner is just asking to die to 1-2 shots from a tank gun. This may seem off-topic, but it isn't because I'm trying to explain that there is no reason why the Orca should have a longer ranged chaingun than the Apache. "But Nod has better infantry" isn't a good argument, because firstly they don't have better infantry. The only advantage they have over GDI is the Stealth Black Hand, and when you factor in all the advantages GDI have over Nod with their free soldier, Patch, Gunner, Sydney... it ends up about equal. But more importantly, infantry combat that isn't 1000 credit characters and Hotwires/Technicians becomes pretty obselete later in the game... compared to vehicles which remain useful from the moment you can afford them until the game ends. Therefore it makes no sense to try to balance GDI/Nod vehicles off against their equivalent infantry. Vehicles are way more important in the game, so any advantage in vehicles is a bigger advantage. I know someone is going to suggest that SBH nuking somewhat balances out any aerial advantage GDI has in Walls Flying... but that idea falls completely flat on City Flying because of the base defences. It doesn't balance out, it's just straight unfair for GDI to have a better aircraft.
Quote: Laser Chaingunner is worthless in practically all situations apart from your base being overrun by tanks and for some reason you don't have enough cash for a Raveshaw to shoot out of the windows. Am I reading this correctly? The Laser Chaingunner is one of, if not the most useful mid-level infantry option. It has the range to take on enemies far away, hitscan projectiles, a blazing fast refire, and laser-type damage. It can literally take down anything in the game, right up to and including the Mammoth. The rate at which a Laser Chaingun picks apart vehicles is at least equal to that of the PIC and Railgun, and surely second only to the Volt-Auto. The VAR is the weapon of choice for close-quarters vehicle encounters, the PIC and Railgun are ideal for firing around cover, and the laser chaingun is a general-use weapon. It is also positively amazing at disassembling aircraft. Quote: Even then a free Engineer with C4 is probably a better choice, or if you have to use a rifle-type weapon, a Stealth Black Hand (you'll get way more use out of it in the long run). Not likely. You have to get right up next to a tank to use a free engineer offensively, and the SBH does so much less damage in the same amount of time that it's not even funny (not to mention that at the ranges you're talking about, its stealth ability is useless) Quote: Laser Chaingunner is just impossible to use effectively outside your base, because he has to be firing constantly to do the damage and that means a constant line of sight...which means constantly standing in the open. You don't have to stand still to keep a constant line of sight. Quote: Wait a little longer and you get a Raveshaw who can hide behind terrain, then pop out for a second to do way more damage in one shot. The Railgun, however, kills vehicles a bit slower over time and is less effective against other infantry. Quote: Laser Chaingunner is just asking to die to 1-2 shots from a tank gun. If you engage a tank at range and you get hit by two tank shells as a nimble little infantryman, you were either too close to something or you weren't moving enough. Tank shells move slowly enough to avoid; snipers, APCs, and other midlevel infantry are your greatest concerns. Quote: The only advantage they have over GDI is the Stealth Black Hand, and when you factor in all the advantages GDI have over Nod with their free soldier, Patch, Gunner, Sydney... it ends up about equal. Never underestimate the value of such units as Chem Troopers and Laser Chaingunners. Laser Chaingunners are, as stated above, one of the best anti-vehicle units- better than Gunner over time. Chem Troopers may be close-range units, but they can wreak havoc on harvesters and do a damn fine job of putting buildings down when used in small groups. Quote: But more importantly, infantry combat that isn't 1000 credit characters and Hotwires/Technicians becomes pretty obselete later in the game... compared to vehicles which remain useful from the moment you can afford them until the game ends. That's crap, pure and simple. Midlevel infantry is as effective as 1000 credit-level and costs less, which means you have more money in reserve for the all-important vehicles. Moreover, the higher-up characters depend on high damage per-shot a lot more, which makes missing more costly (especially with PIC/Railgun, each of which gets only 31 shots). Quote: Therefore it makes no sense to try to balance GDI/Nod vehicles off against their equivalent infantry. Yes, it does. Quote: Vehicles are way more important in the game, so any advantage in vehicles is a bigger advantage. Not bloody likely! If you don't have proper infantry backup for your legions of tanks, they die. All things being equal, the team which has the edge in mid or high level infantry will have the advantage. Quote: It doesn't balance out, it's just straight unfair for GDI to have a better aircraft. They ought to be closer to their TD counterparts. Orcas have missiles, Apaches have chainguns; it makes more sense that way.
Then again, there's the stealth tank for city flying.. How many times has Nod won with a stank rush on that map? It really depends on the server and if it's a public or a clan game.
I agree with nukit15. Chaingunners are THE choice of weapon when you dont have much cash and want to take on vehicles. Any smart vehicle runs and hides when it comes across one. Definitly one of my favourits! And well worth the 450 bucks.
I don't think you realise how easy it is to bodyshot infantry with a tank gun. It doesn't matter if a Laser Chaingunner tries to strafe, against a good tank driver it will get hit. It has to come out into the open in order to mantain constant fire on the tank, then 2 tank shells and it's dead. Raveshaw is really easy to kill with a Med too, but he can hide which is what makes him so dangerous. Edit: btw, Chem Troopers are even more worthless. They have good damage in theory, but in practice... lol.
Wait, so, you're saying that no matter how talented the Laser Chaingunner is at dodging tank rounds, if the tank driver is good than the Laser Chaingunner will go down so fast that it's useless? Because I remember several firefights I got into as a Laser Chaingunner, against a tank, that I managed to atleast get the tank down to half health. You have to factor in the experience and skill the Laser Chaingunner has, and the tank driver, not just the tank driver. Edit: Spelling mistakes.
Well you're half right. You have to factor in the skill of the tank driver at least. If the driver sucks, then sure you can kill him with Laser Chaingunner... but you could probably kill him with Chem Warrior too, lol. Laser Chaingunner still sucks as a unit in the field. There isn't really any skill that enables you to dodge tank shells though... it's more the driver being a poor shot if he misses at medium-close range... and at long range, well, the tank just drives closer to you. The projectile is too big and you're too slow, it's not like strafing sniper bullets in the tunnels.
Only when a med/mamut gets really close, does he have a change of getting a direct hit. While the black hand, after a few indirect blasts, can get a quick refill and get back to the fight. This works especially well on under and field. In the open the chaingunner will die, but give him cover from the obi and he will give meds hell. From all the non 1000 credit characters this one packs the most punch too. Only real disadvantedge is that it will run out of bullets after killing a single med.
m1a1_abrams wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:39 Well you're half right. You have to factor in the skill of the tank driver at least. If the driver sucks, then sure you can kill him with Laser Chaingunner... but you could probably kill him with Chem Warrior too, lol. Laser Chaingunner still sucks as a unit in the field. There isn't really any skill that enables you to dodge tank shells though... it's more the driver being a poor shot if he misses at medium-close range... and at long range, well, the tank just drives closer to you. The projectile is too big and you're too slow, it's not like strafing sniper bullets in the tunnels. Uh. Actually. There is a skill that allows you to dodge tank rounds. It's called timing the rounds. If you time your jumps properly, you can dodge tank rounds with no problem. I should know, I dodge them all the time.
Lijitsu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:52 m1a1_abrams wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:39 Well you're half right. You have to factor in the skill of the tank driver at least. If the driver sucks, then sure you can kill him with Laser Chaingunner... but you could probably kill him with Chem Warrior too, lol. Laser Chaingunner still sucks as a unit in the field. There isn't really any skill that enables you to dodge tank shells though... it's more the driver being a poor shot if he misses at medium-close range... and at long range, well, the tank just drives closer to you. The projectile is too big and you're too slow, it's not like strafing sniper bullets in the tunnels. Uh. Actually. There is a skill that allows you to dodge tank rounds. It's called timing the rounds. If you time your jumps properly, you can dodge tank rounds with no problem. I should know, I dodge them all the time. Also though, a smart person in the tank will realize your dodgind everythign and mix up his tank shells. A guy did this today on Xpahze, he was an SBh, I was a med tank. It was fun fr him, till i realized he was timing my attacks, i ended up pinging him in the head I still say, from a medium distance Person not with tank<Person with tank.
That's why you have to learn when to reverse your jumping. I've caught myself jumping directly into a tank round when I did that, but usually you can dodge the tank round they think will hit you.
Lijitsu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:56 That's why you have to learn when to reverse your jumping. I've caught myself jumping directly into a tank round when I did that, but usually you can dodge the tank round they think will hit you. We gotta try this one day. Ill have the tank, you can have the Chaingunner. Hows that sound
cheekay77 wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:58 Lijitsu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:56 That's why you have to learn when to reverse your jumping. I've caught myself jumping directly into a tank round when I did that, but usually you can dodge the tank round they think will hit you. We gotta try this one day. Ill have the tank, you can have the Chaingunner. Hows that sound Well, considering the fact that I hardly ever play anymore, no thanks. Getting used to games like UT '99 and CS 1.5 will ruin your gaming reflexes for other games.
That's exactly what I've been saying. He's only useful in a defensive role when you can stay close to your base for cover... which is exactly why he's not a very good character. You win games by attacking, not defending, so if you intend not to be stuck in your own base besieged by tanks on all sides then the Laser Chaingunner is not a good character. That's not to say that he doesn't have his limited uses, but only when your team is on the back foot at the time. Anyway, this is all irrelevant really. I was trying to make a point about how Nod doesn't have clearly superior infantry to GDI, so GDI shouldn't get the vehicle advantage to compensate. I agree btw, that the aircraft should have been more like Tiberian Dawn, but they're not and I don't think Crimson is going to want to change that. Since they have the same weapons in this game, they shouldn't have different ranges. Think about it this way... if both teams lose their barracks and the only way they can take down enemy aircraft is with their own aircraft, GDI will have a huge advantage. Is this fair? Of course it isn't. The thing is, it wasn't as noticeable in stock Renegade because aircraft hardly ever engaged each other in the open for fear of snipers. However, if n00bstories is going to keep the new armour class for light vehicles, then it I think it will become more of an issue and needs fixing too.
I use it in an attack role, and I rarely do nothing to the enemy. I've managed to stop rushes, simply by disrupting their vehicle purchasing. That was a fun one...
It doesn't take very long to empty a LCG clip, and if you really need cover you don't HAVE to stay out there forever. Smart infantry use cover, and when they're not under cover they're dodging every which way. I tall boils down to one cold, hard truth: I, using my pesky little Laser Chaingun, do not have to lead my target while you, the big honkin' tank, do. I would have to try really, really hard to miss your tank, while you have to put in actual effort of some kind to hit my little soldier standing halfway across the map. Were you aware that a Laser Chaingun can take down aircraft at a rate second only to that of the n00bjet? Low per-shot damage is NOT a disadvantage if you've got the speed and accuracy to make it up, and the Laser Chaingun has both. Is it the best weapon in every situation? Hell no, it isn't. There are plenty of times when I'd take a PIC/Railgun or a Rocket Launcher instead. IMHO, the weapons with high per-shot damage are better for defensive duty, not the Laser Chaingun- in defensive situations, the enemy is closer, which means you want to be behind cover a lot more (meaning, in turn, that you want to do a lot of damage in a very short period of time every time you pop out of cover). On an open field, I'd rather have a Laser Chaingun, because it lets me get in the maximum amount of damage with the minimum amount of downtime between shots and reloads (the Laser Chaingun also has one of the fastest reloads in the whole game). It won't leave me high and dry in an infantry brawl, either (miss even once with a slower weapon and you leave yourself wide open), and (as I believe I've stated before) it is positively brilliant as an anti-aircraft weapon. I might just be hazarding a guess here, but I'm just going to go ahead and say that I seriously doubt you've spent much time actually using a Laser Chaingun. When I'm on Nod, unless I'm playing as an Engineer or in armor, that's the first thing I buy... and most of the time, I live a lot longer using that than I do using anything else. The Laser Chaingun really is a devastatingly effective weapon.
Devinoch's and Girv333 were great. Sfps was good Even the map rotation owned It was laggy though, but it's not that strange when I was running on a onboard gfx and a 1100 mhz processor. Some people would have had reasonble fps since, the p4/Atlhon 1500 were out already. Me and some others were busy pointwhoring anyways...
Ask JeffLee67 about LCG -- it's his favorite character and he is amazing with it. My trial is still going well. There are a few complaints here and there but most of the reaction is positive. I'm very interested to see if destroying the WF first in Walls Flying doesn't mean GDI wins anymore.
I've used extensively every character and vehicle in the game actually, in attempt to find a use for everything. Some things I've found through experience are just not worth buying most of the time, Laser Chaingunner being one of them. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Btw, I just want to make clear that even though I seem to be the main voice of concern in this thread, I do actually think the changes are a good thing on the whole. I just don't think you can balance the flying maps by just changing the armour type so snipers do less damage. Non-flying maps = much better.
Crimson wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 16:30 My trial is still going well. There are a few complaints here and there but most of the reaction is positive. I'm very interested to see if destroying the WF first in Walls Flying doesn't mean GDI wins anymore. What is the difference between the "few complaints" you are now getting against it vs. the "few complaints" you used to get about the way it originally was? The last time I played City Flying with Ack (before the change), he went half the game in a apache and the remaining half in a stolen orca. During that time he had 40+ kills and 1 death; in my opinion, his argument about them being "worthless" is completely without merit. If the opposing team has 5 snipers, you're pretty much SOL, and that's the way it should be: 5000 credits really should win against 900. But when he flew against 1-2 snipers, he would always either kill them, or get away before being destroyed. The way it is now, I have a hard time believing that infantry can even walk around on a flying map with 8-10 helicopters owning the sky; but I'll reserve complete judgement until I play a game and see. When we did this in the past, even ack agreed that the balance would be good if homing missles worked correctly.. that obviously hasn't happened so I would tend to believe that it is now unbalanced in favor of aircraft. You can put out some raves, but their range is so short that it should be simple for two helicopters to wipe them out way before they are destroyed.
cheekay77 wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:58 Lijitsu wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 14:56 That's why you have to learn when to reverse your jumping. I've caught myself jumping directly into a tank round when I did that, but usually you can dodge the tank round they think will hit you. We gotta try this one day. Ill have the tank, you can have the Chaingunner. Hows that sound *post deleted*
Quote: his argument about them being "worthless" is completely without merit. Ever since 1995 I've been playing flight simulation games, or some kind of game about flying battles. I've spent years in Renegade perfecting my technique with Orcas\Apaches, and I have yet to see anyone else fly like I do and be able to stay alive as long. Just because I can do it doesn't mean that they're still not worthless to other people. A n00b can take a medium tank and drive around for longer than 10 seconds. That same n00b can fly an Orca and blow up in two seconds from sniper fire. How is that useful? Quote: the way it should be: 5000 credits really should win against 900. There's more to game balance than credits spent on a unit. Do you think that five "snipers" should be able to take out a Mammoth Tank? Those five Sakuras cost more than three Mammoth Tanks.
It's not as if any n00b can go and own the skies now with these changes, it still takes skill. Everything but snipers still does the exact same damage, and with even 2 or 3 minigunners shooting at you at the same time your health goes down fast. No amount of skill could avoid the multiple blue beams that would fly towards you at the speed of light from the other side of the map. Now that skill can be properly used, and I'm sure in time people will adjust and find new ways to take down helicopters, instead of just emptying a single clip from 300ft away and killing your target...
I have yet to see any huge difference in gameplay since the change over, myself. ...well, aside from the fact Auto-Rifles and Chainguns do squat against Orcas now. Most people are smart enough not to stick with bullet infantry knowing they're about to get an assramming of Buggies/Humm-Vees and Engineers, though. Even before the change. In short...I really dig this. Keep it as it is if you were planning to do otherwise. Humm-Vees, Buggies, Orcas, Artillery, and MRLS units all still end up getting demolished by other infantry(such as my Sydney) or vehicles, but can no longer be easily penitrated by a hellstorm of gunfire. ^_^
Lithius, basically you say that when you loose your hon or barrcks, the game is over.
I played a few maps on the server to check this out, Not much to say other then it was different and not a bad change of gameplay. I dont think this was the way to go though..You'd be better off tweaking the settings of the armor.ini (I understand this needs to be fixed Client side aswell), but as far as a server side solution to the problem it worked allright. This really isnt a good or bad thing, its just different....I dont think I'd want to play with these settings all the time though. I played city flying, and orca's did rule the sky once we lost our PP...where before we could atleast back some of them off with chaingunners and other low cost infantry.
Goztow wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 04:22 Lithius, basically you say that when you loose your hon or barrcks, the game is over. You're forgetting Grenadiers, Flamethrowers, and Engineers. But...yeah. That's a fairly accurate statement. That's usually how it works anyway, though. Least on the servers I've played on.
I played just to try it after reading this thread, I knew comming in, it was a bad idea, and from me testing it out 1st hand....bad idea!
Dr. Lithius wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 09:18 Goztow wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 04:22 Lithius, basically you say that when you loose your hon or barrcks, the game is over. You're forgetting Grenadiers, Flamethrowers, and Engineers. But...yeah. That's a fairly accurate statement. That's usually how it works anyway, though. Least on the servers I've played on. If there's still 20 minutes left, yes. If it's like 5 minutes left... wouldn't be so sure Especially when u have a small points advantage to defend.
trooprm02 wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 13:36 I played just to try it after reading this thread, I knew comming in, it was a bad idea, and from me testing it out 1st hand....bad idea! Do you care to elaborate or must I figure out what your problem is without any information?
Aircraftkiller wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 21:48 trooprm02 wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 13:36 I played just to try it after reading this thread, I knew comming in, it was a bad idea, and from me testing it out 1st hand....bad idea! Do you care to elaborate or must I figure out what your problem is without any information? Thats True!
Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 February 2006 19:47 Ever since 1995 I've been playing flight simulation games, or some kind of game about flying battles. I've spent years in Renegade perfecting my technique with Orcas\Apaches, and I have yet to see anyone else fly like I do and be able to stay alive as long. that's because you don't play top-level clan games. FMI, does this server modification affect the points ramjets get from shooting vehicles? Because that's something I'd kill (or at least, deal a minor flesh wound) to see.
Top-level clan games? I was playing clan games in Renegade before you were, in -WL-.
Never said otherwise, but if you study my post a little more carefully you'll notice I selected the word "don't", not "didn't"
Crimson, has this week-or-so trial become permanent?