Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
type: channel
description: C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
items: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
items: Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service

EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: "Apoc, EA C&C Community Manager" Greetings from your C&C Community Manager! To continue the ten year anniversary celebration of the widely popular Command and Conquer franchise, I am pleased to reveal EA’s partnership with XWIS (XCC WOL IRC SERVER)! Through this partnership, all Command and Conquer games formerly supported by EA/Westwood Online will be redirected through XWIS, thus instituting XWIS as the main online game server management team. XWIS is a community driven online game server that launched in October 2003 to replace the XCC Community Ladder. The new and improved features enabled include chat, in-game ranks, matching filters, lobby monitoring, improved Quick-Match, and fully functional automatic ladders for clans and individual tournament players. The beauty of this partnership is that you won’t have to download any external programs to utilize XWIS. All the enabled features and connections to the servers are already integrated into the supported games! I’m also excited to share with you that the Strike Team will be monitoring the banning and anti-cheat controls on a daily basis and will provide technical support as needed. The Strike Team is a website built of hardcore Command and Conquer fans and is sponsored by the EA German Community Team. Their goal is to ensure a controlled and fun online environment for all players. XWIS will commence a two week trial period with Command & Conquer Red Alert 2 and Command & Conquer Red Alert 2: Yuri’s Revenge. Once this trial is completed on Oct. 20th, XWIS will be supporting the following EA/Westwood online games: Command & Conquer Red Alert 2 Command & Conquer Red Alert 2: Yuri’s Revenge Command & Conquer Tiberian Dawn Command & Conquer The Covert Operations Command & Conquer Red Alert Command & Conquer Red Alert: Counterstrike Command & Conquer Red Alert: Aftermath Command & Conquer Tiberian Sun Command & Conquer Tiberian Sun: Firestorm Command & Conquer Renegade Dune 2000 Nox Emperor: Battle for Dune EA is 10…
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-06T20:27:54-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I daresay that BHS knows more about C&C Renegade's WOL data than Strike Team. That isn't to say that Strike Team doesn't know a lot -- I'm sure they do. Personally, I think it would be in everyone's best interest if BHS could make a deal with Strike Team to assist with the Renegade portion of their XWIS.
creator: Kanezor
date: 2005-10-06T20:31:56-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I'd have to agree with Kanezor.
creator: cmatt42
date: 2005-10-06T20:37:33-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: What about the logins/passwords? I really don't like the fact that third party people get access to that. Be it by transfering the database or their own registering service.
creator: Sir Kane
date: 2005-10-06T20:59:10-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I'm sure that in order for Strike Team to be able to have such priveledges, EA would have had them sign various agreements. I'm sure that not abusing any information they receive is one of those agreements.
creator: Kanezor
date: 2005-10-06T21:00:34-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: BATTLE FOR a00 NICKS IS NOW
creator: xptek
date: 2005-10-06T21:09:24-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: This is their way of dropping support for WOL and all things related to C&C. I think BHS should be jumping all over this opertunity. Perhaps they'd be willing to work with you, or something to that effect.
creator: Renx
date: 2005-10-06T21:15:06-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: This is not good.
creator: Yoshimitsu
date: 2005-10-06T21:33:40-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: It'll spread out how many people are playing on WOL... Less people = less full games... I'm not really sure. I suppose that it depends on how many people want to play on XWIS. I just checked the XWIS server, most of the people on there are playing RA2. I was the only Renegade person. Just pointing this out. I don't have an opinion at the moment.
creator: rm5248
date: 2005-10-06T21:34:50-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: No. If this pans out like it's supposed to, then *ALL* WOL players will end up playing on XWIS. No choice, so no spreading of players between WOL and XWIS.
creator: Kanezor
date: 2005-10-06T21:39:57-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: or in short - EA Just Killed WOL...
creator: Mad Ivan
date: 2005-10-06T21:52:04-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: EA has 0% dedication towards Command & Conquer. They just realize that C&C is still very popular with the PC gamers. While I'm sure there are employees at EA who love the series and are enthusiastic about this, I forsee this being a disaster. EA won't care as they have already shown, and I don't really trust XWIS completely yet. I should probably try it out before I make any opinions on it, but right now, I'm skeptical. My skepticism probably isn't founded on much, but who knows? I see the fact that we won't have idiots crying about not having an FDS server as a good thing, but I don't really see the need for more servers as it stands, anyways.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2005-10-06T21:58:23-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: i'm wonderig if this means things like the lobby chat will be turned back on in red alert2 and how much support they will give. i also wonder if ea is suggesting that they are washing their hands of c&c (even though they state otherwise) or, if this works out, will they continue to make more c&c games(like the rumored redalert 3) my only concern is this responsibility and private information being handed over to a third party. what do we know about this organization? are they accountable for the actions of their employees? what safe guards do they go through to make sure they are hiring only responsible people? is this just a bunch of online people who have never seen eachother? do they let just anyone join up with no background checks? i think we've all had experience with people we play with/collaborate with online who seem like upstanding people only to find out later they are really assholes. when i buy something from ea or contact ea for any reason, i know i am dealing with a corporate entity which i can hold accountable if one of their employees does something illegal or wrong...what such repurcussions are available against these 3rd parties?
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-06T22:06:05-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: When Ted Morris of Westwood handed the responsibility of these forums over to me, he specifically stated that he could not hand over any information at all. That's why you all had to re-register here when that happened. We used a sort of scraping mechanism to get many of the old posts back but that wasn't with Westwood's knowledge or consent (or objection). However, in this change-over, we players won't notice anything different except the MOTD. And some of us with custom software like WOLProxy will have to change a couple things. What that also means is that our client software will happily send over our serials, usernames, and encrypted passwords. But, what good would they be without WOL online anymore? What harm could be done with them? Pretty much nothing. I found out about this a couple of weeks ago when I approached them about the problem with the FDS serials. Essentially this solves that problem. In this probable scenario, BHS would release one serial that anyone could use to get through the installer for the FDS. I had always hoped that BHS would get the opportunity to support the Renegade community in a more official capacity, and in fact we already have most of the software and infrastructure required to do so.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-06T22:25:12-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: This is simply an unappreciative move on EA's part. After all the things this Renegade community has contributed, it gets handed over to somebody who's heart really isn't in Renegade. What a shame.
creator: Yoshimitsu
date: 2005-10-06T22:38:45-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Quote: To continue the ten year anniversary celebration of the widely popular Command and Conquer franchise That's a bit ironic, seeing as how EA killed the C&C franchise... Well, we all knew EA would shrug off WOL sooner or later. It was only a matter of time.
creator: NukeIt15
date: 2005-10-06T23:32:49-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Thats the only thing EA is good at! Hanging great and popular games out to dry! I share J_Ball's skepticism!
creator: Kytten9
date: 2005-10-06T23:48:05-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Its another way for EA to save money and dump off the C&C franchise faster. They're just losing money on the game now so they're finding a way to stop paying the bills. If you ask me the Renegade portion being one of the largest should be given to BHS for management. If you think about it Renegade is really on a category of its own. It was the only FPS type game in the C&C series. Fuck EA. Thats my main point. I no longer purchase any of their products because of their lack of support. If I want want one of their games I simply download it. I felt it important to include CCFan's input here since he is a major part of this community. He shares a very important remark: Quote: This is doomed to fail unless Olaf (creator of XWIS) makes some changes. XWIS is missing a key command that allows Renegade to work behind NAT (anyone with a router uses NAT).
creator: genetix
date: 2005-10-06T23:54:17-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: "Apoc, EA C&C Community Manager" EA is 100% dedicated to the Command and Conquer franchise And EA says they don't lie. A said it to a clan manager, and I'll say it to EA: Sure, you can talk it. But can you prove it? Yes, EA claims they have technical support, and it's true, they do. However, it is almost as bad as AOLs tech support. Yes, EA claims to support C&C, and it's true, they do. However, this is only because they thought they would get money from it. Yes, EA claims to be this great corporation for gamers, and it's true, they are. However, this is only because EA makes video games, otherwise it would be about hotdogs or something. My point here is that, EA, although producing many sometimes good games, they are useless. They have horrible tech support, they don't approve of hardly anything worthwhile, they killed WestWood and C&C, and they think they're doing good. The few people who had previously worked at WestWood have either moved on to Blizzard Entertainment(YAY!) or they moved on to a differant company, taking with them their great RTS making knowledge. Go to hell, EA. Give Black Hand Studios support of Renegade, and maybe you'll be considered smart.
creator: Lijitsu
date: 2005-10-07T00:31:30-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Amen. Give it to the people who know the game and who have created countless patches for it (Renegade).
creator: Yoshimitsu
date: 2005-10-07T01:14:33-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: genetix wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 19:54 Its . Fuck EA. Thats my main point. I no longer purchase any of their products because of their lack of support. If I want want one of their games I simply download it. so, you've decided to be a thief because you don't like the company but you want to play their games? i really wish they would take copyright laws more seriously and put assholes like you in jail!
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-07T01:26:06-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Crimson wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 18:25 What that also means is that our client software will happily send over our serials, usernames, and encrypted passwords. But, what good would they be without WOL online anymore? What harm could be done with them? Pretty much nothing. ea has always said "don't give your serial number to anyone. if they get it you can lose your playing ability" now, these strangers will have our serials and our usernames. they can also get our passwords easily enough with any brute force password program. also, is this the only information they are getting? or are they getting info from our profiles or registrations also?
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-07T01:30:43-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: 100% dedication towards command and conquer? If that's 100% dedication, I would hate to see what 50% is. Tell them I said EA sucks. Make a "good" command and conquer game and I will change my mind. I believe many share this opinion.
creator: Jecht
date: 2005-10-07T01:49:05-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: gbull wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 20:49 100% dedication towards command and conquer? If that's 100% dedication, I would hate to see what 50% is. Tell them I said EA sucks. Make a "good" command and conquer game and I will change my mind. I believe many share this opinion. yes i share your opinion
creator: JeepRubi
date: 2005-10-07T01:59:50-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: spotelmo wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 19:26 genetix wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 19:54 Its . Fuck EA. Thats my main point. I no longer purchase any of their products because of their lack of support. If I want want one of their games I simply download it. so, you've decided to be a thief because you don't like the company but you want to play their games? i really wish they would take copyright laws more seriously and put assholes like you in jail! I would like to see them try. They wouldn't go after me anyway. They would go after the source. I'll admit EA games makes good games. But I believe a company should support their products or be punished to the full extent of the law. For example. I bought a game called Gangland. It wouldn't work so I emailed the support team. 42 emails later they said they would email me back if they found a result to the problem. 2 emails before that they told me I was the first one to post a problem in the last 14 months.... I tried that game on 4 different computers and could NEVER get it to work. To bad theirs a no return policy. Thats why I download games. To me when you buy a game you buy support. Not the software.
creator: genetix
date: 2005-10-07T04:13:17-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: spotelmo wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 18:30 Crimson wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 18:25 What that also means is that our client software will happily send over our serials, usernames, and encrypted passwords. But, what good would they be without WOL online anymore? What harm could be done with them? Pretty much nothing. ea has always said "don't give your serial number to anyone. if they get it you can lose your playing ability" now, these strangers will have our serials and our usernames. they can also get our passwords easily enough with any brute force password program. also, is this the only information they are getting? or are they getting info from our profiles or registrations also? I was mostly playing devil's advocate.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-07T05:07:05-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: From posting and watching the mayhem on the XWIS forums, I can see clearly that XWIS is in no way shape or form prepared or capable of handling our community. Not to mention DonCarlo dodges every question he can.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2005-10-07T05:23:43-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: XWIS/StrikeTeam acknowledges they are probably not the best people to run the Renegade WOL server... that spells hope for us. I have already sent off an email to Apoc, so we'll see what I hear back. If nothing else, I hope that we can work out something to allow us to help them run things.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-07T05:58:54-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: EA doesn't want to spend the time or energy to split the responsibilities of the servers. It'll probably have to be one or the other. My guess is that it'll be XWIS that still maintains everything because it'd be too much work for EA. That's my guess, but let's hope I'm wrong.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2005-10-07T06:11:22-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Fuck, I thought this was a joke when someone posted it on Gamefaqs, but my hopes were dashed when I came here. They might as well send out a mass mailer that says IF YOU PLAY RENEGADE FUCK YOU WE HATE YOU AND HOPE YOU CHOKE, at least it would be honest and get the point across.
creator: Deathgod
date: 2005-10-07T08:05:58-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: This is an exciting event and a huge step to take, also a big opportunity. See it this way: EA could just have closed WOL, game over. Now they offer the possibility to change WOL that tiny bit but wothout anyone will ever see it. Players that aren't concerned with anything except the game (and many are this way and that's good!) will just continue connecting to what they think is WOL... Now i'm not sure if XWIS can handle this kind of support. There are two ways for BHS to go now: 1. Contact Apoc, explain him what's the deal with all of this. But don't forget: XWIS had the infrastructure, BHS doesn't (yet) so this gives them prolly the main advantage. 2. Maybe the better option: contact XWIS, make a deal with them. Let them keep all RA but try to get an influence on renegade. Ask them if they are prepared to let you help them making their system up to the challenge, propose them to help out gestion of all this. Basically: let them have the infrastructure for all but get the gestion of Renegade towards you. As you said crimson: this is an opportunity to kill all annoyance (script kiddies, ...) and to make WOL revive in a new system. it's just a matter of using the opportunity in a smart way. PM me if i could be of any help (which I doubt but you never know).
creator: Goztow
date: 2005-10-07T08:09:45-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Email to Apoc is already sent. Main problem at the moment is that XWIS doesn't support NAT so that leave all of us (yes, me too) with a router (or basically anyone who isn't directly connected to their modem) out of luck.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-07T08:40:24-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: j_ball430 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 01:23 From posting and watching the mayhem on the XWIS forums, I can see clearly that XWIS is in no way shape or form prepared or capable of handling our community. Not to mention DonCarlo dodges every question he can. He? Lots of people make lots of assumptions here. Please don't.
creator: Olaf van der Spek
date: 2005-10-07T08:42:12-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Let me repost here what I posted over at the Strike Team forums. Quote: Hi guys, I have been waiting for my registration email for a while, so I've been helplessly watching this thread slide into oblivion until I decided to make an account with a different email address. Anyway, I am speaking as an official representative of Blackhand Studios (BHS). I learned about this change when I approached Apoc regarding a problem we've been having in the Renegade community about dedicated server serials. I can say that we are VERY happy that EA is being more flexible, and Apoc has been doing a great job in his new role. I am really happy to see the community get the opportunity to support our favorite games. That being said, I am glad that you (Strike Team) recognize that your knowledge and participation in the Renegade community doesn't compare to your dedication to the other games. I have already emailed Apoc a few hours ago regarding BHS making a "bid" or "audition" to be able to support the Renegade part of WOL. I hope that you won't see this as trying to step on your toes or anything. I believe everything we have done for Renegade more than proves our dedication to the fans and I do STRONGLY believe that you guys are the right folks to take over all of the other games, most specifically the older C&C RTS-style games. That said, I am overwhelmed by the community support for BHS. Sometimes I feel like we're not doing enough or working too slow, so it's refreshing to see that the community DOES still support us. I acknowledge that EA has been changing. Apoc is doing an excellent job. I hope that we can get things worked out that will be the best options for Renegade AND all the other games. I don't have a problem with you guys not knowing much about Renegade. I just hope that we can all amicably work out a solution to give the gamers what's best for them. I think only my negative feelings and not my positive ones have made it to this particular thread and I just wanted to ba…
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-07T08:44:03-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 04:09 XWIS had the infrastructure, BHS doesn't (yet) so this gives them prolly the main advantage. Actually we do. Even folks like Dante long ago took part in creating a WOL replacement (REOL). BHS also has it's own WOL clone on the back burner, ready to go in case WOL ever was shut down. Even if WOL were to somehow go away forever (for the sake of argument that XWIS nor BHS nor any other third party would be permitted to support it), Renegade would still not be dead, for we could play on GameSpy. The biggest problem with that scenario is that we would lose lots of players who aren't "in the know" and would just stare blankly at their screen when they cannot connect to WOL, give up, and uninstall. As someone else mentioned, I imagine that all of WOL will go to XWIS, as it would be too much "trouble" for EA to point just the renegade WOL servers to BHS counterparts (even though it would just be updating some DNS entries). I still hope that BHS gets a chance to further support Renegade. If not, hopefully XWIS has the capacity to support the Renegade community. This could also be a good thing in that it sets a precedent for EA allowing third parties to support their legacy games. While I doubt we would ever get the golden fleece of Renegade source code, perhaps in the future we would be allowed to take on more support responsibilities.
creator: Blazer
date: 2005-10-07T08:48:50-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Quote: "EA is 100% dedicated to the Command and Conquer franchise and wants to ensure a strong and secure online gameplay environment. Long live Command and Conquer! We hope to see resurgence in the legions of NOD and GDI followers claiming ground online." Fucking bullshit. Fucking, bullshit. They are not 100% dedicated. They did not make things secure. You know who made Renegade online far more secure than EA ever dreamed? Black Hand Studios. Props to the original Renegade coding team though; they managed to nicely encrypt and protect a lot of the internal workings and data passing, significantly reducing the existance of 'trainers'. However, as EA has shown, they LOVE to screw over the online systems, shutting them down so only the bot-runners and hackers can even publicly chat anymore. They're so *committed*, they won't hire people part-time or even randomly give them any kind of moderator/admin status on the old chat channels. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt them to give somebody $5 an hour to just keep a little bit of order; hell, I do that kind of thing for free. Many people do. They're so dedicated to providing secure systems, one person named Adad has thousands and thousands of the Free Dedicated Server serials for Renegade... in fact, he has *every single one* that was left at the time when he launched his thievery attempt! And of course, EA hasn't provided more.. oh, no, they're too dedicated to do that. They're so wanting to provide for a secure environment that tons of serials were stolen or spoofed, and relays are in abundance. This is, again, EA trying to take credit for the community's effort; claiming they've always been there. Fuck you EA. I'll give them 50% dedication points for continually caving to demand and PR concerns by periodically giving out free software to contest winners that they could buy for anywhere from $4 to $18 for the full damned set retail new and unused, and for periodically giving out various goodies they had spares of that were oth…
creator: Chronojam
date: 2005-10-07T08:49:05-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Looks like I need to dust of The All Seeing Eye. Im behind a router, so that rules me out of using XWIS. And what about EA's promise regarding support? Nice to see that fly out of the window. (See SS) I'm really quite dissapointed, when they took over Westwood, they KNEW the responsibility they were taking on, they shouldn't back out of it now.
creator: light
date: 2005-10-07T09:30:25-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I have a router and I played on XWIS before... Or was that in the time I didn't have it yet??? *confused* Also all who have the CnC strategy pack (or however it's called) with ra2, yuri, TS, Firestorm and renegade can forget about gamespy. Their serials don't work for gamespy. I tried to play there but i get kicked immediately from each server. It's a strictly legal serial, the pack cost me 25 freaking € but can't game on gayspy. I mailed gayspy about it and mailed EA. Both answered in big: "FUCK U". So yeah...
creator: Goztow
date: 2005-10-07T10:06:55-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I got the pack, and I've played on GSA before. Not a whole lot, since I like WOL better, but I still played on it.
creator: Lijitsu
date: 2005-10-07T10:14:33-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: light wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 05:30 Im behind a router, so that rules me out of using XWIS. Why do you assume/think this issue won't be solved?
creator: Olaf van der Spek
date: 2005-10-07T10:50:44-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Quote: To me when you buy a game you buy support. Not the software well, what you think doesn't matter. the law says when you buy software, you are buying the software not support. as for the non-return policy, you can fight that because like any product, when you buy it, it is implied that it will be in working order or they must refund your money. often there are extra hoops you must go through to get money back because of assholes who steal software rather than buy it.
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-07T13:49:07-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Olaf van der Spek wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 04:42 j_ball430 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 01:23 From posting and watching the mayhem on the XWIS forums, I can see clearly that XWIS is in no way shape or form prepared or capable of handling our community. Not to mention DonCarlo dodges every question he can. He? Lots of people make lots of assumptions here. Please don't. Proper grammar states that if you don't know someone's gender, you "assume" that the person is male. Not to mention a VAST majority of gamers are male. Throw in the fact that he/she/it uses the internet alias of "DonCarlo", and you really have no choice but to assume that he/she/it is male. Okay? Okay.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2005-10-07T13:51:53-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Hello all, I've read the majority of your posts here. I would like to pose a counter point. Up until yesterday there was no one monitoring the Red Alert 2 lobby, the Ladders were non-functional, and tournaments were a legend. That has changed. Handing off the online component to a team with the resources to monitor it is the right decision. Granted they are not as Renegade centric as BHS. I was a strong advocate of this change when I heard about it. I was glad the online community was going to get the support they deserved. You guys have been true to the franchise. Would you rather have Xwis have a chance to improve things, or leave them in the Bot-controlled land of yesterday? Yuri.
creator: Yuri
date: 2005-10-07T15:27:50-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I wonder... could this allow BHS to distribute core patches (and maybe renguard) as mandatory downloads to play on WOL, the same way westwood used to distribute their patches with the auto-patching system...
creator: danpaul88
date: 2005-10-07T15:32:20-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I trust Olaf a bit more with this than I do with you guys. I've known the guy for at least four years now and I've seen him run a WOL service for a long time. There's no reason to not trust him, he had several opportunities to work for Westwood Studios after being invited so it's not like he's someone alien to this community or its games. If they don't care about Renegade, well, that's to be expected. Most people don't care about it anymore.
creator: Aircraftkiller
date: 2005-10-07T15:33:02-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: We think it's good that the games are being transferred from EA... just not Renegade. Also, we're mostly commenting on the comment how EA is "100% Dedicated" to the C&C franchise. This is just a way for EA to wash C&C from their hands while making it look like they're trying to help the community.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2005-10-07T15:33:37-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I am very concerned about XWIS not suporting NAT. Thats effects a HUGE majority or the Renegade community. I don't see though why that could not be fixed. If that were to be addressed and BHS was given an ACTIVE role in the support and operation I would be 100% for it.
creator: luv2pb
date: 2005-10-07T17:22:24-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2005-10-07T17:43:01-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: If bhs does get control of renegade, would the option of not running renguard be an option? or would players who don't run it be forced to or not play at all? this is just a theoretical question because not everyone does run it nor have any desire to.
creator: Adj2400
date: 2005-10-07T18:23:06-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Don't put words/ideas into our mouths. The more likely scenario regarding RenGuard is that if we had access to patch the game, we would add things to FIX the parts that are broken that allow people to cheat in the first place. But that is purely speculation as I don't personally know what our team's knowledge is with regards to that. The fact is, EA is very supportive of us and what we've done for this game, so good things are bound to happen. Our path at the moment is to at least get us in an active role of helping XWIS manage Renegade going forward. The NAT problem highly concerns me though, for several reasons. First is that those of us with NAT won't get any useful feedback to tell us WHY we're unable to connect. This will provide a very negative experience. We'll have to use RenIP or GSA to connect to servers, and I do still like to see how many ladder points I can get... but kiss that goodbye if I can't participate on the ladder.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-07T18:40:31-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I didn't put any words in your mouth it is a very relevant question. im just concerned that renegade could bite the dust through all of this.
creator: Adj2400
date: 2005-10-07T18:47:16-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I think this is very good! This will shine some light on problems neglected by EA.
creator: trooprm02
date: 2005-10-07T19:17:39-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: well, my opinion is that BHS should have a chance to handle this because they really spend much time and money(RG servers for example) in the renegade game... also the great work about CP stuff which is there for all the players, all the commands we can use now what we couldnt before. i dont know anything about XWIS but i also havent heard anything about their work on renegade... i think BHS should get an offer from them to handle it, and not just a 3rd party who havent done anything similar to this game... I dont know much about how WOL works at all with all this games but i think to let BHS handle WOL for Renny is just only fair after all they did... (if they agree) Franco
creator: -EC-franco
date: 2005-10-07T19:24:14-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: EA is not dumping the whole C&C franchise, It's way to profitable. I'm holding judgment until we see what happens.
creator: Traingye
date: 2005-10-07T19:30:06-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Your right they wouldn't dump the whole franchise still nothing is protecting the game that they have already abandoned 2 years ago. Generals and Red Alert 2 still make some good money for them however Renegade itself isn't generating too much new money yet it is expensive for them.
creator: =HT=Soviet
date: 2005-10-07T19:35:56-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: If EA do not listen to your petition Crimson and they do not even give you a chance to handle WOL IRC for renegade (even though they should, you have taken responsibility for the forums and maintained them for a very long time now after EA stopped running the original "renegade forums. Also, irc.n00bstories.com has been running for a long time now and is almost the unnofficial network for many server owners to put there channels on. Not to mention the CP1 and the way it was implemented and distributed. And the greatest triumph of all.. renguard (although seriously 1.04 is over due)will you still put up your own clone of WOL IRC even though XWIS will be given controll of the existing WOL IRC?
creator: reborn
date: 2005-10-07T19:52:18-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: At the end of the day if EA are going to dump us there is no point spending 3 pages complaining about it and slagging off EA, we all know they suck but bitching over it is pointless. What we we should be doing is discussing what Xwis will or will not be able to do for Renegade, what they can offer compared to WOL. What possible glitches there are like the NAT issues that Crimson mentioned. Will BHS be involved and if so how much will they be allowed to control or what input they can have. In principle it could be good for the game if the servers are alot more stable, the rankings are managed alot better for those that care about them. There will hopefully be a decent level of support available if the servers go down etc, somthing which isnt really open to us at the moment.
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2005-10-07T20:15:43-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Giving you an update on this issue. Blackhand Studios is currently in a private chat with the Strike Team (Olaf and Don Carlo).. working out the issues, and making sure Blackhand Studios will be involved in anything that concerns Renegade. It will all work out
creator: mac
date: 2005-10-07T20:25:04-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: genetix wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 19:54 Fuck EA. Thats my main point. I no longer purchase any of their products because of their lack of support. If I want want one of their games I simply download it. [/quote] Or to put it another way, if you can't beat them, go one step worse?
creator: Spoony_old
date: 2005-10-07T20:30:33-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: This sounds like a wonderful idea. I wholly trust Olaf and XWIS and all that's been done for the RA universe. However, only as long as BHS can collaborate and handle the Renegade aspect of this transfer will I be satisfied with this transfer of power. I only trust RA/C&C to XWIS, and only Renegade to BHS.
creator: YSLMuffins
date: 2005-10-07T20:50:32-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I think Olaf can do it fine without help.
creator: Ma1kel
date: 2005-10-07T20:53:10-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Of course, you're right. A staff of two can certainly manage all the support issues that will arise that we already know about. :\
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-07T21:03:33-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I personally dislike this idea, sure its not ea but well........... ea has a certain history for entirly fucking EVERYTHING up (glances at all 3 bf2 patches and generals/zero hour patches/support) I really think wol was (is) GREAT, if any change is to happen i'd rather see BHS running the show rather than EA
creator: Master. kirby
date: 2005-10-07T21:42:18-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Dont EA run it now anyway under the WOL guise, if the changes where to happen wouldnt xwis and possibly BHS together run the renegade section together taking it away from EA ?
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2005-10-07T22:29:44-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I only really have one problem with this - the swear filter. Bear with me, I have a point. Was just in the RA2 lobby. Said the word "fuck". I now find I'm banned for 15 minutes from chatting because of this. Now if the game didn't have an inbuilt "Bar Bad Language" filter, there wouldn't be a problem with this. While this is a small thing, it brings for me a larger problem. This means that we are at the mercy of a moderation standard by people who would be unaccountable for their behaviour. I don't mind not swearing, it's not like I can't survive without it, but my point is that they should be doing things the EA way - and to my knowledge, they didn't ban people for swearing, they filtered it client side. But hey. I can't really do anything about it.
creator: DaveGMM
date: 2005-10-07T22:55:27-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Thats exactly how I feel Dave. We're no longer dealing with a corporation. Now we're dealing with just two people, and maybe abusive sysops.
creator: Yoshimitsu
date: 2005-10-07T23:12:39-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: They did ban you for swearing. In the first year Renegade was out I remember saying "Fuck" in one of the chat channels. I was serial banned from WOL for an hour, then a few minutes later my friend called up and asked why the hell he was banned from WOL(was using my serial).
creator: Renx
date: 2005-10-07T23:18:02-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I remember similar things back using WChat -- you swear, you get banned for a short period.
creator: Kanezor
date: 2005-10-07T23:20:29-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Oh the humanity, you have to last half an hour without swearing in a computer game.
creator: Spoony_old
date: 2005-10-07T23:30:17-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I didn't sign any agreements to censor my language when I joined up, so there's no reason I shouldn't be able to swear if I feel like it. It should be a client side option to turn on the filter if people feel the need to use it.
creator: Deathgod
date: 2005-10-07T23:34:43-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: XWIS YOU AR NOT JUST A BIG JACKAS AND YOU THE BIG HEAD JUST YOU CREATE XWIS F**K YOU BIG JAKAS YOUR XWIS IS BAD YOU WANT I WRUGHT THIS THE XWIS IS BAD HEY IS ONE YEAR YOUR PROMESS A RENGADE SERVER NAMD XWIS IN ONE COMMUNTY AND DONT JUST XWIS I TELL IT ALL REPLYER IN THIS FORUM I DESLIKE YOU ^I think BHS Should have control over the server. They have contributed many things, such as Core Patch 1, Renguard, and users (such as myself) support others in #bhs_support daily (well, we try!). Also, Strike Team/Xwis have admitted to not knowing much about Renegade, or about the community. So are they going to learn all about the history of Renegade in 2 weeks? I would wish them luck, but all of the luck in the world couldn't help you with that.
creator: havocide3
date: 2005-10-08T00:00:49-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: havocide3 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 19:00 XWIS YOU AR NOT JUST A BIG JACKAS AND YOU THE BIG HEAD JUST YOU CREATE XWIS F**K YOU BIG JAKAS YOUR XWIS IS BAD YOU WANT I WRUGHT THIS THE XWIS IS BAD HEY IS ONE YEAR YOUR PROMESS A RENGADE SERVER NAMD XWIS IN ONE COMMUNTY AND DONT JUST XWIS I TELL IT ALL REPLYER IN THIS FORUM I DESLIKE YOU ^I think BHS Should have control over the server. They have contributed many things, such as Core Patch 1, Renguard, and users (such as myself) support others in #bhs_support daily (well, we try!). Also, Strike Team/Xwis have admitted to not knowing much about Renegade, or about the community. So are they going to learn all about the history of Renegade in 2 weeks? I would wish them luck, but all of the luck in the world couldn't help you with that. Agreed, Havocide...GSA/ASE simply DOES NOT WORK on my box...XWIS is probably going to end up NEEDING BHS's help...hopefully this isn't going to drag all of BHS's other projects down...us HT's CAN'T WAIT to equip our server with RG...however, that won't happen until RG 1.04 comes out...:S
creator: =HT=T-Bird
date: 2005-10-08T00:42:25-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: RenGuard 1.04's progress has already been stalled a bit because of this, but this issue is more time-sensitive and higher priority. http://www.n00bstories.com/image.view.php?id=1023280658 ^^ Look at all the CVS commits we've done this week.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-08T00:57:59-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Deathgod wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 19:34 I didn't sign any agreements to censor my language when I joined up, so there's no reason I shouldn't be able to swear if I feel like it. It should be a client side option to turn on the filter if people feel the need to use it. This is how I feel whenever I get yelled at for swearing in a server by retards who are self-proclaimed too lazy to enable the language filter. I always hear "Hey my little boy/girl/dog plays this game, don't swear!" Well damn, I couldn't help but notice this game is not rated-E-for-everybody; what an irresponsible parent to let a 9 year old play this killing simulation, eh? And I couldn't help but notice there is a language filter! If they "don't want to see it" they should just use the feature that was put in to make them... not see it! And that's what really grinds my gears.
creator: Chronojam
date: 2005-10-08T01:04:49-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: ... and that's why my server doesn't kick you for swearing. In fact I encourage it.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-08T01:06:09-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: It's not your job to raise your children, it's the governments..
creator: msgtpain
date: 2005-10-08T01:19:38-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I've been saying for the longest time that the game is rated Teen. If you let your kids play the game if they're under 13, then that's your decision, and I don't have to censor myself to accomodate random people. If they ask politely, I may try and cut out my swearing, but I won't make any promises.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2005-10-08T01:53:19-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: msgtpain wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 20:19 It's not your job to raise your children, it's the governments.. I hope that's sarcasm that I'm unable to detect.
creator: Kanezor
date: 2005-10-08T02:53:19-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Crimson wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 21:06 ... and that's why my server doesn't kick you for swearing. In fact I encourage it. Fuck yeah. On that note, I fully support you.
creator: Deathgod
date: 2005-10-08T03:32:01-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: The client side language filter doesn't do a thing. Try turning it on and you will see no difference.
creator: Traingye
date: 2005-10-08T03:36:39-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Yet another bug, I think.
creator: Kanezor
date: 2005-10-08T04:18:05-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: lol i don't know what kind of kid doesn't hear all kinds of swearing at school or around friends by the age of 13 or even 10, so who cares about reading it.
creator: Homey
date: 2005-10-08T05:46:58-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Yeah, my parents never really gave a shit about censoring themselves. And look at me now! I'm 13 right now, about to be 14, and I cuss like a sailor!
creator: Lijitsu
date: 2005-10-08T05:49:56-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Traingye wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 23:36 The client side language filter doesn't do a thing. Try turning it on and you will see no difference. It does work.
creator: Spoony_old
date: 2005-10-08T06:31:47-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: If you want to swear, then do so. But why would you take the time to type it out? It's really stupid... Noone gets ANYTHING of it, not even you because you loose time during which you can be killed. Noone says you cannot swear. Thing is if you would swear out loud in voice, your mummy would probably come up and tell you to stop doing that because you're making yourself ridiculous. I can tell you: it is even more ridiculous when you do not say anything but click f2, type "fuck" and hit enter. Congrats Crimson on that one, btw... Encourage swearing on your server... just as smart as deleting the whole banlist without even making a selection. Nothing personal though.
creator: Goztow
date: 2005-10-08T08:07:43-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: It's worked out VERY well for us. Don't knock it until you try it.
creator: Crimson
date: 2005-10-08T09:45:58-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I seem to have given the impression that I need to swear in every single goddamn sentence to survive. That just isn't the fucking case. My point is that they're not there to go and impose their own rules on the servers, but if they do, who is going to stop them from turning the whole online thing into... I don't know, something that would make me long for the days when EA were running it - they may have been shit, but at least when they kept their noses out things didn't screw up too badly... But this is a minor point, guys. If they do a good job, then yay.
creator: DaveGMM
date: 2005-10-08T10:10:28-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 09:07 If you want to swear, then do so. But why would you take the time to type it out? It's really stupid... Noone gets ANYTHING of it, not even you because you loose time during which you can be killed. Noone says you cannot swear. Thing is if you would swear out loud in voice, your mummy would probably come up and tell you to stop doing that because you're making yourself ridiculous. I can tell you: it is even more ridiculous when you do not say anything but click f2, type "fuck" and hit enter. Congrats Crimson on that one, btw... Encourage swearing on your server... just as smart as deleting the whole banlist without even making a selection. Nothing personal though. I shall resist correcting your abysmal spelling and grammar for the time being to call attention to what an idiot you truly are. First of all, if all swearing does is waste one’s time then why have you gone to the equally “troublesome” extent of filtering it on your server? And “nobody says you can’t swear”? Remind me again that key rule of your server. I believe it is “no swearing” right? Second, we are not just on about in-game swearing, it’s swearing in the chat lobbies etc. Like it’s been stated above, how pathetically stupid is it that you’d let a 12 year old play a game portraying guns, bombs and killing yet you’d have the sheer audacity to question a swear filter on such a game. Not to mention the fact that every 12-year-old and his dog swears these days. “Mummy telling you off for swearing”? That has to be one of the most absurd and laughable arguments I have ever heard. Not only is it something I’d expect from a 12 year old with personal experience, I would have thought you, with your astonishing level of arrogance, could at least come up with something better than that. And finally. Who the fuck are you to question Crimson? (*shiver* Noes! I said the f word!) I don’t see you working to improve the renegade community. Even if you did, the extent to which …
creator: Dave Mason
date: 2005-10-08T11:59:54-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Crimson wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 05:45 It's worked out VERY well for us. Don't knock it until you try it. It hasn't worked for me....
creator: Traingye
date: 2005-10-08T14:03:47-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: That's because Crimson is better than you.
creator: Lijitsu
date: 2005-10-08T14:06:39-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: havocide3 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 20:00 XWIS YOU AR NOT JUST A BIG JACKAS AND YOU THE BIG HEAD JUST YOU CREATE XWIS F**K YOU BIG JAKAS YOUR XWIS IS BAD YOU WANT I WRUGHT THIS THE XWIS IS BAD HEY IS ONE YEAR YOUR PROMESS A RENGADE SERVER NAMD XWIS IN ONE COMMUNTY AND DONT JUST XWIS I TELL IT ALL REPLYER IN THIS FORUM I DESLIKE YOU ^I think BHS Should have control over the server. They have contributed many things, such as Core Patch 1, Renguard, and users (such as myself) support others in #bhs_support daily (well, we try!). Also, Strike Team/Xwis have admitted to not knowing much about Renegade, or about the community. So are they going to learn all about the history of Renegade in 2 weeks? I would wish them luck, but all of the luck in the world couldn't help you with that. *agrees* BHS should really have the chance to handle it...
creator: -EC-franco
date: 2005-10-08T16:14:55-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: I try not to swear too much...aside from the occasional "Oh fuuuuuuuck me!" when I do something particularly stupid and get killed for it. Or "Shut the holy flying fuck up!" to a spammer. Oh, and maybe "hit the fucking gas!" when the APC driver won't move...
creator: NukeIt15
date: 2005-10-08T16:17:22-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 04:07 If you want to swear, then do so. But why would you take the time to type it out? It's really stupid... Noone gets ANYTHING of it, not even you because you loose time during which you can be killed. Noone says you cannot swear. Thing is if you would swear out loud in voice, your mummy would probably come up and tell you to stop doing that because you're making yourself ridiculous. I can tell you: it is even more ridiculous when you do not say anything but click f2, type "fuck" and hit enter. Congrats Crimson on that one, btw... Encourage swearing on your server... just as smart as deleting the whole banlist without even making a selection. Nothing personal though. Believe me, if I could let everyone hear me say FUCK! when I typeit out in game, I would. I would call them up personally and say FUCK! right in their ear. Speaking of wasting time, your whole post was a waste. I have a feeling that by extension you are a waste, because this has nothing to do with the topic at hand yet you keep bringing it up.
creator: Deathgod
date: 2005-10-08T16:23:22-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: This topic isn't about swearing. Please don't take it off tracks, this is really important. I think it's good that EA is giving up WOL, they really don't have support, as we've all seen. And, it's of course good that they don't just shut it down, they're actually handing it over to someone! But, are XWIS/Strike Team to be trusted etc.? I say yes. Do they have the same kind of know-how as BHS? Sure, they know a lot about other C&C games, but about Renegade, I doubt it. So, in short: Good thing someone gets WOL, though it would be EVEN BETTER if it was BHS. Crimson, Mac, Blazer and others! I hope you guys get as much control over this as possible, because I know you can do it!
creator: RTsa
date: 2005-10-08T17:01:25-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: DaveGMM wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 18:55 I only really have one problem with this - the swear filter. Bear with me, I have a point. Was just in the RA2 lobby. Said the word "fuck". I now find I'm banned for 15 minutes from chatting because of this. Now if the game didn't have an inbuilt "Bar Bad Language" filter, there wouldn't be a problem with this. While this is a small thing, it brings for me a larger problem. This means that we are at the mercy of a moderation standard by people who would be unaccountable for their behaviour. I don't mind not swearing, it's not like I can't survive without it, but my point is that they should be doing things the EA way - and to my knowledge, they didn't ban people for swearing, they filtered it client side. But hey. I can't really do anything about it. actually, they DID ban people for swearing. in fact, if i remember correctly it was 24 hours. they even used to ban for the word "idiot" until it was complained about(by me after the only ban i had ever gotten)
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-08T17:52:02-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Deathgod wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 19:34 I didn't sign any agreements to censor my language when I joined up, so there's no reason I shouldn't be able to swear if I feel like it. It should be a client side option to turn on the filter if people feel the need to use it. yes, you did. it was in the user eula that you electronically signed when you installed the games.
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-08T17:53:40-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Homey wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 01:46 lol i don't know what kind of kid doesn't hear all kinds of swearing at school or around friends by the age of 13 or even 10, so who cares about reading it. i do. i know my children hear it, that doesn't mean i condone it. and when others are swearing in front of my children i let them know it isn't acceptable.
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-08T17:55:25-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: Crimson wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 17:03 Of course, you're right. A staff of two can certainly manage all the support issues that will arise that we already know about. :\ tell me this team that is taking over the online aspects of the c&c games isn't just a team of 2!
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-08T17:59:28-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: xptek wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 16:09 BATTLE FOR a00 NICKS IS NOW ?????? THIS SOUNDS LIKE SHIT
creator: nopic01|
date: 2005-10-08T18:02:24-00:00

Re: EA Partners with XWIS Community Service
type: item
description: your opinions mean sooo little to me. in fact, i sure wish there was a way i could charge you for the time out of my life taken to read and reply to your message. edit: this was meant as a reply to ack. sorry must have forgot the quote button
creator: spotelmo
date: 2005-10-08T18:52:56-00:00