Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
type: channel
description: C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
items: As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
items: Re: As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
type: item
description: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17216&c=206 Yes, that's right. Seems as if "President" Bush authorized torture and this wasn't just a small isolated thing. But anyone who reads news already knew that. And guess what? This story will NEVER make the media outlets unless it snowballs, because they are not news. Don't feign yourselves into thinking they are.
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T02:37:18-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: aclu.com A document released for the first time today by the American Civil Liberties Union suggests that President Bush issued an Executive Order authorizing the use of inhumane interrogation methods against detainees in Iraq. Yeah...SUGGESTS. Doesn't say yes or no, and plus, even if it was true...so what? We torture them to get answers. That saves American lives in the long run if we can get important information out of them.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T02:42:32-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: P-R-O-P-A-G-A-N-D-A M-O-R-O-N You need help, your a sad sad shadow of a child, you give our President no respect, you give no one but people who share your hippie views with respect, you do nothing but spread propaganda, which you can not possible belive, if you do i feel sad for you and even worse for your parents (who i think should be beat with a rubber hose and electric lines for teaching you such loads of crap and not beating your ass enough when you were little). How could you possible belive such crap that our president authorized that?? Your simply full of it dude, sad sad sad. And he's PRESIDENT BUSH not "PRESIDENT" BUSH, , he won office, the people spoke, give him the title he rightfuly won.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T02:45:09-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Well, how about you READ the document and decide for yourself? Oh, and the Geneva Convention CLEARLY outlines that we will not torture people and the Constitution CLEARLY outlines that all signed treaties are the law of the land. Americans are not somehow more "godly" or more deserving to live than non-Americans. We're all people. Get it through your conservative skull. EDIT: cowmisfit, are you going to read the article or just be an idiot?
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T02:47:52-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: You people get our soilders killed EVERYDAY, people like you who post this garbage false propaganda. The terrorist and just normal people see this crap and they belive it , but they have an excuse, there not educated, YOU however are a fully educated American (even though you hate america) YOu have no excuse to beleive this shit except for the fact your parents are morons, which has to be the place you get your FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR left views from. THese people who besides the fact wouldn't think of killing one of our men, see this crap and belive it they go out and get one of our boys killed (which im sure you dont' care anything about as long as we arn't invading on anyones freedoms and bush gets blamed for it). YOU feed the fires of hate, you feed the fire that kills our boys in Iraq and Afganistan and around the world everyday with your sympothetic feelings torward the terrrorist. Get out of my country, im sure france or canada will take you.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T02:53:05-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi Oh, and the Geneva Convention CLEARLY outlines that we will not torture people and the Constitution CLEARLY outlines that all signed treaties are the law of the land. Americans are not somehow more "godly" or more deserving to live than non-Americans. We're all people. Get it through your conservative skull. Listen to me, mindless drone. It's people like you who spread this shit that gets to the general public. The general public sees it, and they don't like it. In return, they complain to their elected officials that they don't like the war. The officials, afraid to lose the office, vote against supporting our troops. This weakens our troops, and in return, KILLS MORE OF OUR MEN BECAUSE THEY ARE LESS EQUIPPED. Brilliant strategy you got there, liberals. Those people aren't POWs. Those people are terrorists attacking our men. They know they can't win, but because their fucked-up loyalties cause them to desire to kill as many of our men as possible. They don't care about dying. In fact, they WANT to die for their cause. If we torture a few to get the knowledge we need to save more of our men, then LET IT HAPPEN. Yes, they are human, but in order to save more of our men AND more of THEM, we need to get answers NOW.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T02:54:14-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: j_ball430 If we torture a few to get the knowledge we need to save more of our men, then LET IT HAPPEN. Yes, they are human, but in order to save more of our men AND more of THEM, we need to get answers NOW. Read taht part closely superflying, read it very closely and think on it before you post. You probebly still won't understand it, but its worth a shot. I'd love to see video of you telling one of the men who's lives might have been saved or loss by us tourchering prisionors or us not doing so because of people like you.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T02:57:42-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SFE I don't like picking sides but i am going to have to go with "them" this time, Shut up. I have relatives over in the middle east that i care about and then the people trying to kill them i would much rather have the retards with no education die then them, interrogation is fine by me, you need to relize as many stupid decisions Bush makes he makes some good ones, just let it go.
creator: MilkyLep
date: 2004-12-21T02:59:06-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: You actually read the ACLU web site... YOU ARE A LOSER. Besides if it is true who the hell cares. Beating the shit outta terrorists for information. Sounds pretty fair to me.
creator: DarkDemin
date: 2004-12-21T03:02:58-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Through out history we have broke the "rules" of civilized warfare, we've done it for right and wrong reasons, in vietnam we raped woman for no reason, that was one of the wrong things we've done, we also shot children and woman in vietnam, that was one of the morally objectable things that we were forced to do to save our soilders lives and get info to save our soilders lives, its something that no one wants to do but it has to be done. Kill or be killed, kill or be killed. Personlly, would i WANT to kill an innocent person, no, would i want to even kill anyone nope, but if it saves the lives of my comrads and protects my freedom and nation, then damn't im gonna kill that son bitch dead.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T03:04:58-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Cowmisfit: I suppose you chose to go with the latter. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on such a pathetic case, but I don't have much to do right now. First, my parents. Both got above a 1400 on their SATs, and my dad regularly works side by side with the top scientific brains in the physics textbook industry as a chief development editor. [Clue for the clueless: Important role.] You also can't declare your pretend lala belief that my parents are below the average intelligence level to rest within the level of "fact." Now, why do I hate America? Because I don't blindly follow our "leaders" like you do? No, that's why I love America. Again, I reiterate: "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" -Thomas Jefferson Now, I'm betting you no Arab fundamentalist fighters are reading Renegade Forums to listen to bitches like you. I care for our soldiers. Don't say I don't. I don't want them in this war. I want every one of them out of the Middle East right now. I never wanted any of them to be there. I never did, wanted, would, want or ever will want ANY of our soldiers to be hurt. j-balls430: First topic: One of the stupidest things I've ever heard. The vast majority of the populace probably never once wrote a complaint to their officials, because they just don't care that much. And those in positions of public office aren't going to vote against any more money for our troops, they're going to vote against our troops being in active combat if the populace demands it. If the citizens of the United States believe our soldiers are in an unjust war, then they can bring them out of the unjust war. Although, since a big chunk of voters on election day were voting on "moral values," your group obviously doesn't care. Terrorists and soldiers aren't the same thing. And that still doesn't justify torture. Are you saying it does? You're wrong. Read the article. Nope, still wrong. The United States does not torture anyone. Well, until "President" Bush, we didn't. Now, both of you…
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:06:36-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: I'm sorry, but you have no grasp on reality.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:08:54-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: DarkDemin You actually read the ACLU web site... YOU ARE A LOSER. Besides if it is true who the hell cares. Beating the shit outta terrorists for information. Sounds pretty fair to me. No, I got this tidbit from a blog site independent of the ACLU. MilkyLep SFE I don't like picking sides but i am going to have to go with "them" this time, Shut up. I have relatives over in the middle east that i care about and then the people trying to kill them i would much rather have the retards with no education die then them, interrogation is fine by me, you need to relize as many stupid decisions Bush makes he makes some good ones, just let it go. Oh, so we should go to their land and then kill them before we can kill us because in your eyes it's the best thing to do? How quaint. Also, this article is implying that Bush lied about whether or not he knew about torture in the Middle East. If we're going to be doing to them what Saddam did to them, shouldn't we at least know about it? Also, wasn't lying why Clinton was impeached and the main reason most of you dislike him? Or was that somehow different because otherwise you would all be caught in hypocrisy?
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:11:38-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: YOU ARE WRONG Clinton wasn't impeached. And.... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . YOU ARE STUPID.
creator: MilkyLep
date: 2004-12-21T03:16:18-00:00

Re: As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingFuck's Signature What is wrong with me?
creator: icedog90
date: 2004-12-21T03:17:03-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Quote: I don't know why I'm wasting my time on such a pathetic case, but I don't have much to do right now. First, my parents. Both got above a 1400 on their SATs, and my dad regularly works side by side with the top scientific brains in the physics textbook industry as a chief development editor. [Clue for the clueless: Important role.] You also can't declare your pretend lala belief that my parents are below the average intelligence level to rest within the level of "fact." Wow, that means umm nothing?? I dont' give a shit how high of a score they got on there SAT's, it means squat. They have no REAL LIFE skills, they have no COMMON SENSE, things you can't learn from a text book. SO my statement stands, your parents are morons and shouldn't be rasing a child if they are going to instill beleifs of hate for ones country and harborning terrorist into them. Quote: Now, I'm betting you no Arab fundamentalist fighters are reading Renegade Forums to listen to bitches like you. Its not the point if there reading HERE, there reading stuff that people in higher people put out on the media waves, teh same crap you support and post here, you support it you support killing our troops as far as im concerned. [quote]I care for our soldiers. Don't say I don't.[quote] You don't care about them or you wouldn't be posting crap like this to get them killed. Quote: I don't want them in this war. I want every one of them out of the Middle East right now. I never wanted any of them to be there. I never did, wanted, would, want or ever will want ANY of our soldiers to be hurt. If you cared anything about america or its men in arms, you wouldn't have made that statement right there, they are PROTECTING OUR NATION, they don't WANT to be there, but most of them do WANT to be there because thats there job and they want to protect our nation and YOU (well not you, but you as in all of us) Thats the biggest hippie statement i've seen in ages, I DON"T WANT ANY OF THEM IN THE MIDDLE EAST!!! , a…
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T03:17:25-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: MilkyLep, I have to agree with SFE here, but ONLY because it has to deal with a universal truth. Impeachment is to be formally accused. Clinton WAS impeached.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:17:55-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: MilkyLep: Why? If you can't explain it then you obviously aren't being entirely reasonable in stating it. [P.S. cowmisfit and j-balls430 have both lost their chances to talk to me because they are too stupid to even think of staying on topic. Too bad.]
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:21:39-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi MilkyLep: Why? If you can't explain it then you obviously aren't being entirely reasonable in stating it. [P.S. cowmisfit and j-balls430 have both lost their chances to talk to me because they are too stupid to even think of staying on topic. Too bad.] cowmisfit and j-ball SCORE: 1 Superflyinghomo SCORE: 0
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T03:23:11-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi [P.S. cowmisfit and j-balls430 have both lost their chances to talk to me because they are too stupid to even think of staying on topic. Too bad.] I...CAN'T....STOP....LAUGHING! You think it's an actual PRIVELAGE to talk to you? ROFL! You honestly think you're important enough to give out people "chances" to talk to you? WOW! I must quote my one of my previous posts: myself I'm sorry, but you have no grasp on reality.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:24:22-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Because i am tired and i have nothing better to do and you make these type of topics whenever you see an article bashing the prez which in my opinion make you an attetion whore. Sleepy time.
creator: MilkyLep
date: 2004-12-21T03:26:16-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Wow. Worse reply from SFE ever.
creator: icedog90
date: 2004-12-21T03:27:36-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Just one more thing: Well, you obviously wanted to come and talk to me, as demonstrated by your coming and talking to me. But now, as warned, I must say no more. Also, that would be "I wrote". EDIT: MilkyLep Because i am tired and i have nothing better to do and you make these type of topics whenever you see an article bashing the prez which in my opinion make you an attetion whore. Discourse irritates you? This isn't your kind of forum. Icedog, read this ACLU article. Then read the documents if you want to. Then think for yourself. Reading and then thinking is the recipe for success. Now, time to get back on topic. Thoughts on this article? Come on, I know they're there.
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:28:09-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi Just one more thing: Well, you obviously wanted to come and talk to me, as demonstrated by your coming and talking to me. But now, as warned, I must say no more. Also, that would be "I wrote". DIdn't want to talk to you, just didn't want everyone seeing your one sided propaganda and being blinded by it with out seeing the truth.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-21T03:29:33-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi I must say no more. Good for you. Maybe now you'll shut your fucking mouth. EDIT: I already gave you my response. I don't give a fuck. It's justified, no matter how much your twisted mind thinks it's not.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:29:47-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi Icedog, read this ACLU article. Then read the documents if you want to. Then think for yourself. Reading and then thinking is the recipe for success. Reading that article has nothing to do with what situation you put yourself in. Reading your replies already shows me how much of a stupid fuck you are.
creator: icedog90
date: 2004-12-21T03:33:32-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: What situation? The situation of having an opinion? Am I stupid for holding one contrary to an "elected" offical, namely "President" Bush? Are you so pro-Republican that you can't stand to see anyone doubt their candidates? And keep your slanderous forked tongue within the confines of your oral cavity.
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:39:20-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: If this can be backed up by another (preferrably MORE credible) source, I'll give it some serious thought. However, the UCLA saying something like this is perhaps as believable as speaking the word "christmas" being a capital offence.
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-21T03:40:06-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi What situation? The situation of having an opinion? Am I stupid for holding one contrary to an "elected" offical, namely "President" Bush? Are you so pro-Republican that you can't stand to see anyone doubt their candidates? And keep your slanderous forked tongue within the confines of your oral cavity. I've doubted Bush's abilities enough times, and Clinton's too. Also, stop being such a fucking idiot, and RESPECT THE MAN FOR ONCE. He's the highest elected official in the nation. Show some fucking respect. Whether or not you respect him as a person, respect him as the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Yes, that country that you live in.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:41:17-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: warranto: Well, this is only the tip of a potential iceberg. Right now the ACLU has a big stack of documents [availible for review at the bottom of that article] that they presented to a judge to see whether or not an executive order has to be released and whether or not it must be determined if there was one. Don't be mistaken, this story hasn't resolved yet, but there is an enormous amount of evidence to suggest what is about to come.
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:42:34-00:00

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description: The saying comes to mind SFE... "Childern should be seen and not heard." Really you acctually believe an orginization that supports communism and the overthrowing of the American Governmental system. These people that hate Christians and think they are doing the world a favor by denying all Christian beliefs. They have sick ideologies, they believe that we shouldn't have done anything about Sadam killing and TORTURING his own people. Have you not noticed the kidnapings of people in Iraq were they are tortured and beheaded. Terrorists deserve no mercy. I couldn't care less if they beat them to death, as far as I am concerned the second they try to kill an American is the second they forfiet their right to life.
creator: DarkDemin
date: 2004-12-21T03:42:55-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: j_ball430 I've doubted Bush's abilities enough times, and Clinton's too. Also, stop being such a fucking idiot, and RESPECT THE MAN FOR ONCE. He's the highest elected official in the nation. Show some fucking respect. Whether or not you respect him as a person, respect him as the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Yes, that country that you live in. But you forgot, he doesn't live in America, he was transferred to Canada by MoveThemOn.org.
creator: icedog90
date: 2004-12-21T03:44:42-00:00

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description: icedog90 But you forgot, he doesn't live in America, he was transferred to Canada by MoveThemOn.org. No, that's just one of his wet dreams.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:45:05-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Super: Like I said, someone who suggests that saying "Merry Christmas" is a capital offence is not a credible source, so (no insult towards you intended) you'll need to provide something else to substantiate it before I comment. Be that a court order, or another news source (preferrably not FOX or CNN, because that will start a whole new "debate" about credibility ).
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-21T03:47:48-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: I find it quite comforting to myself that I use bigger words than most of you while being of a younger age. Also, technically, you aren't hearing me, but merely seeing the text I print. Thanks for your concern. The ACLU's objective is to assure that the Bill of Rights is upheld, not install a new economic system into the United States. Is this about those court cases where government offices are putting on Christmas displays? Because that and banning Christianity aren't exactly the same thing, you know. DarkDemin, I ask you, what good is it if we go into a country claiming to end the regime of a torturer, and then start torturing people while saying we're not? How much better are we than Saddam then? Not all Arabs are terrorists, you know. And here we go again with your Republican "Americans are more important than other races..." talk. I can't stand it. We invaded their country, and dropped so many bombs more or less all of them know someone personal that we have killed. That's why they hate us and our soldiers and our people, not because of our "freedoms" or any stupid reason like that. EDIT: warranto: No offense taken. I understand that this news hasn't resolved itself yet, so we must wait and see. However, this crowd didn't hold the same restraint in declaring it vile and wrong. And with that, I must retire for the night. I'll be back on sometime tomorrow.
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T03:48:28-00:00

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description: If he gets that from FOX, I'll believe him.
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T03:48:37-00:00

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description: Of course, the ACLU is there to make sure Religion has no place in the Government, and on tv, and in the work place, and in schools, and any place the public eye is. Oh wait, did I say Religion? I meant only Christianity. Any other religion would be discrimination, and thats protected. But enough about the ACLU's views as related to religion, that can be kept for another topic if it wishes to be discussed.
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-21T03:52:30-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi I find it quite comforting to myself that I use bigger words than most of you while being of a younger age. Also, technically, you aren't hearing me, but merely seeing the text I print. Use of a thesaurus doesn't really make you superior.
creator: xptek
date: 2004-12-21T04:07:14-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17216&c=206 Yes, that's right. Seems as if "President" Bush authorized torture and this wasn't just a small isolated thing. But anyone who reads news already knew that. Did you read the article, or just the blog that pointed it out? Here's what it said about Bush. aclu The two-page e-mail that references an Executive Order states that the President directly authorized interrogation techniques including sleep deprivation, stress positions, the use of military dogs, and "sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc." Oh my God, the horror. Lack of sleep, unconfortable seating, listening to barking dogs, and wearing hoods. That's got to be the worst "torture" ever heard of in history. That's right up there with being beaten, raped, maimed and/or killed. The article also keeps claiming "cover up", yet they have all these documents they got from a freedom of information lawsuit that spells all this out. Wow, that's a tremendous cover up there. Keeping records of all the incidents and releasing them to the ACLU has got to be the most insidious plot ever conceived to hide the truth from the American people. If they were really covering this up, then all the documents would have 'disappeared' before anyone at the ACLU could have got a hold of them.
creator: NeoSaber
date: 2004-12-21T04:09:21-00:00

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description: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the counter-position to this is that the relevent documents taht condem it, simply state "torture", not specifying what types. (yes, I'm being broad, but at the moment I'm too tired to remember the names of the documents...)
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-21T04:13:26-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingEngi Oh, and the Geneva Convention CLEARLY outlines that we will not torture people and the Constitution CLEARLY outlines that all signed treaties are the law of the land. As soon as the terrorists start abiding by the Geneva conventions then We should start and not a moment beforehand. SuperFlyingEngi You also can't declare your pretend lala belief that my parents are below the average intelligence level to rest within the level of "fact." Are you a fucking robot? You dont base all actions based solely on "Fact". Moral objection has to come into play SOMEWHERE DOESNT IT???? Heres how i think you see things: War == Violence Voilence == Bad Dont you ever see a fucking GRAY AREA???? SuperFlyingEngi "moral values," The fact that you put quotes around moral values doesnt surprise me. SuperFlyingEngi Also, wasn't lying why Clinton was impeached SuperFlyingEngi, your constant obsession with trying to make our President (notice the lack of qoutes) look like he is insufficient to run this country is both disturbing and absurd. The fact that I share the same country with you makes the taste of vomit form in my mouth. Whats more is your perversion of the statements that our founding fathers said I myself deem unpatriotic. I have news for you, times change and dissent is the opposite of patriotism. Have some pride in your country. You are the worst American I have ever seen.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-21T04:20:23-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Scamp Use of a thesaurus doesn't really make you superior. When did a thesaurus come into play? Neosaber Oh my God, the horror. Lack of sleep, unconfortable seating, listening to barking dogs, and wearing hoods. That's got to be the worst "torture" ever heard of in history. That's right up there with being beaten, raped, maimed and/or killed. The article also keeps claiming "cover up", yet they have all these documents they got from a freedom of information lawsuit that spells all this out. Wow, that's a tremendous cover up there. Keeping records of all the incidents and releasing them to the ACLU has got to be the most insidious plot ever conceived to hide the truth from the American people. If they were really covering this up, then all the documents would have 'disappeared' before anyone at the ACLU could have got a hold of them. "Listening to dogs" is one way of putting being attacked by them. Those are all torture methods designed to make people lose their minds. It is still torture, don't pretend it's not. I'm sure you saw those pictures from Abu Gharib. Do you believe it counts as humane action? We went into Iraq first under false claims of weapons of mass destruction which we now KNOW are not there, and then started pretending we went in for humanitarian reasons, which is not at all how war was justified, where we claim to be removing a torturer. But now, we're torturing people and pretending we're not. Not very humanitarian, if you ask me. Yes, it is a coverup. These documents were all leaked. Right now, the ACLU is suing to ascertain whether or not there was an executive order condoning torture, of which the administration is apparently trying to cover up. gbull As soon as the terrorists start abiding by the Geneva conventions then We should start and not a moment beforehand. Iraqis = Not Terrorists I can base actions based on something? Cool.... [Re-think that section] gbull The fact that you put quotes around moral values doesnt surprise me. Well, no, it…
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-21T19:48:47-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: You people need to to sort out whether or not those who were tortured were innocent of guilty of anything at all. And no, because American soldiers detained them doesn't mean they are automatically guilty.
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-21T20:27:39-00:00

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description: j_ball430 It's justified, no matter how much your twisted mind thinks it's not. So... theoretically, if your town flew a plane into my school, I could come there and play music 24/7, have dogs bark at you, shine bright lights in your face and put hoods over your head?
creator: rm5248
date: 2004-12-21T20:42:24-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi So, I should blindly follow our leaders? No, I'm afraid that's entirely wrong. There must always remain the question in a democracy. I'm not perverting Mr. Jefferson's statement in the least. It's exactly what he meant, and the point remains. This blind "patriotism", if you can call it that, emanating from the Republican party disgusts me. Why am I a bad American? Because I chance a look at what our President does? Should I believe in what he does because you do? You obviously don't understand our political system in the least. If censorship of ideas comes, democracy leaves. You're quite the hypocrite, aren't you? You say that Republicans blindly follow Bush, yet everything you say and believe is nothing but Liberal propaganda spouted from Liberal media distributors. I certainly don't blindly follow Bush. As I said earlier, I've disagreed with him on a lot of subjects, but I see him as a better fit as president than Kerry would have been if he were to have been elected. I guarantee you that I have more morals than you do. Especially since I come from a religious perspective. I don't like the torture and killings of humans, but it's war. War has completely different rules. You have to do what you have to do in order to save lives and to better lives of people. I know for a fact that if God didn't approve of war, He wouldn't have let David slay Goliath, and then make him the greatest king of Israel. You can't just look at these situations from one perspective. You have have to look at all of them and then morally choose what's right, and not choose based on your bias. --- Yes. I wouldn't like it one bit, but in order to get to those behind the horrible act, then it'd all be worth it. I have enough common sense to know that I sure as hell don't want someone like that in my town. I wouldn't be protecting them, so what do I have to fear?
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-21T20:50:43-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
type: item
description: SuperFlyingEngi "Listening to dogs" is one way of putting being attacked by them. Those are all torture methods designed to make people lose their minds. It is still torture, don't pretend it's not. I'm sure you saw those pictures from Abu Gharib. Do you believe it counts as humane action? We went into Iraq first under false claims of weapons of mass destruction which we now KNOW are not there, and then started pretending we went in for humanitarian reasons, which is not at all how war was justified, where we claim to be removing a torturer. But now, we're torturing people and pretending we're not. Not very humanitarian, if you ask me. Sleep deprivation, uncomfortable seating, and wearing hoods so you can't see for a while don't count as torture to me. I don't know what's up with the dogs, which is what I was trying to point out. The article just claims "use of dogs" not that they attack people. I've read that dogs are used to scare people, without attacking, so without evidence to the contrary I'm going to consider that to be the case here. I don't consider barking dogs to be torture. A little scary maybe, but not torture. What happened at Abu Ghraib was abuse and torture. People being beaten and by some reports killed certainly qualifies as such. The people who did it are being punished. Those investigations and court martials were being carried out months before the story even "broke". The military even announced it, but since there weren't any pictures of the torture, no one in the media really listened. However, I don't see anything in this executive order Bush signed that authorized what happened there. Your initial post said Bush authorized torture, but the evidence you've cited says otherwise to me. SuperFlyingEngi Yes, it is a coverup. These documents were all leaked. Right now, the ACLU is suing to ascertain whether or not there was an executive order condoning torture, of which the administration is apparently trying to cover up. If there was a real cover…
creator: NeoSaber
date: 2004-12-21T21:11:04-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
type: item
description: War just generates war, in a never ending cycle of hate. It's a circle, and with a circle, just can run around it until you end up at the beginning. War will never be stopped. We invest in it, and we need it. We started this never ending circle, and the only way to stop it is to have something big stand in the way. But there can never be something big. War must go on. Today's leaders aren't getting any nicer, or any less corrupt. They sink lower and lower into what they call "defence". This "defence" means becoming "offensive" towards other countries. It's the primal instinct of kill or be killed. Scientists say humans need to die off sometime soon, that some big epidimic will kill off a large number of humans. But humans are ending themselves. We can't continue to live the way we do. We're dying slowly. We are fighting amongst ouselves, like primitive creatures. We fight disease and things we should be fighting but to no avail, because goverment budgets are more set to fighting other human beings. People. But we turn a blind eye. We don't see this part. Most people just think "they hurt us, we hurt them back". It won't end. It's what we're taught. War is bad, there's no way to put it. But we aren't defending ourselves anymore. We're attacking others that we feel threaten us. Primitive instinct. It's what drives war. Nothing more.
creator: glyde51
date: 2004-12-21T21:12:59-00:00

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description: OK, SFE says that the US has never tortured anyone before... and yet John Kerry testified to the Senate that we did in Vietnam... make up your mind you propagandist moron. George Bush is the President, not the "President" whether you like it or not. Not even your pathetic party contest the results of the election. You are just showing your stupidity and ignorance when you do that. I think YOU have lost your privilege of talking to ME because you are completely unable to believe anything unless it's written by a left-wing nutjob.
creator: Crimson
date: 2004-12-22T07:43:44-00:00

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type: item
description: SuperFlyingEngi So, I should blindly follow our leaders? No, I'm afraid that's entirely wrong. There must always remain the question in a democracy. I'm not perverting Mr. Jefferson's statement in the least. It's exactly what he meant, and the point remains. This blind "patriotism", if you can call it that, emanating from the Republican party disgusts me. Why am I a bad American? Because I chance a look at what our President does? Should I believe in what he does because you do? You obviously don't understand our political system in the least. If censorship of ideas comes, democracy leaves. SFE, they are questioning people with known terrorist ties not just iraqis, music is harmless if you are strong of will, Along with sleep deprevation. I myself THIS MONTH went 4 days with NO sleep, now i would bet that the people in question didnt even have to go that long. You go a little loopy after four days, nothing major. And I do not suggest blindly following our leaders but just NOT to question them ALL the time, when you do, nothing gets done. And SuperFlyingEngi, your a bad American because there is nothing patriotic in your views: no pride for America, no appreciation for your freedom, and nothing but whining like a little bitch about every little god damn thing Bush or the Republican party does. Appreciation and Pride for your Country is the Greatest form of Patriotism. Thats just the way it is.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-22T08:50:31-00:00

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description: NeoSaber Sleep deprivation, uncomfortable seating, and wearing hoods so you can't see for a while don't count as torture to me. I don't know what's up with the dogs, which is what I was trying to point out. The article just claims "use of dogs" not that they attack people. I've read that dogs are used to scare people, without attacking, so without evidence to the contrary I'm going to consider that to be the case here. I don't consider barking dogs to be torture. A little scary maybe, but not torture. You have seen pictures from Abu Gharib of people being attacked by dogs, haven't you? That's what I would be led to believe is the most likely avenue. And torture is not just limited to being hit with a real big stick. Dictionary.com defines it as Excruciating physical or mental pain. That's what we were subjecting people at Abu Gharib to, and that wasn't the only incident, apparently. NeoSaber What happened at Abu Ghraib was abuse and torture. People being beaten and by some reports killed certainly qualifies as such. The people who did it are being punished. Those investigations and court martials were being carried out months before the story even "broke". The military even announced it, but since there weren't any pictures of the torture, no one in the media really listened. However, I don't see anything in this executive order Bush signed that authorized what happened there. Your initial post said Bush authorized torture, but the evidence you've cited says otherwise to me. How do you know what's in the executive order if you haven't seen it? That's the whole point of this article, some people in the FBI leaked documents to the ACLU, and the ACLU went to court suing under the Free Information Act or whatever to ascertain whether or not there was an executive order, because all the evidence seems to point to there being one. And that's where we are right now. NeoSaber If there was a real cover up, documents would have been destroyed or never made to begin with. Keep…
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-22T14:35:03-00:00

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description: i have stayed up for 4 days straight several times. Im an insomniac, why do you think i am able to post so often on these forums? cuz i have no life? And yes, they are just sissies, and y do i think they have terrorist ties? BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR THE MILITARY TO DETAIN THEM OTHERWISE. And i never said that just because you dont agree with me that your not a patriot, its the fact that you never ever show any amount of pride or appreciation for this country. All you do is complain and that makes you a Whiney little Bitch. Fact is, I can admit to some great things Democrats have done WHEN THEY DO THEM. You for your life would never admit anything good about the Republican party, or conservatives for that matter. The Fact is, u think methods everyone else uses is wrong u fucking hypocrite. The Military gets answers the way they do things, they dont pamper the detained because every moment they spend ATTEMPING to get answers is a moment of time that an American Soldiers life could be lost because we didnt have that information. But then when that soldier dies, you wouldve bitched about that too and said it was Bush's fault for not getting intelligence fast enough. There is no winning with liberals if your not one.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-22T15:44:35-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingEngi You have seen pictures from Abu Gharib of people being attacked by dogs, haven't you? No, I haven't. I've seen pictures of people being SCARED by dogs. Typical. :rolleyes: SFE Why, yes, Crimson, that's why the Vietnam war was a bad war as well and we should never have sent our troops into it. Well then don't say that we have "NEVER" tortured/abused anyone. :rolleyes: Geneva Convention doesn't even apply to non-uniformed enemies anyway. SFE We really need a new thread to contest the 2000 Florida election, of which could not have been a very clean election, since they never counted all the ballots. And this year, just a couple days ago some anarchist hacker guy testified on the floor of Congress that a Representative [R] from Florida had paid him to back into the electronic voting machines. Oh PLEASE... this is so straightforward. You think "hmm it wasn't a legit election" in 2000, well, Bush managed to convince enough people he could do the job and being a Republican rules to WIN, completely, even with over 50% of the popular vote which Clinton couldn't accomplish. LET IT GO ALREADY. SFE Gbull, are you really saying that playing music incredibly loudly 24/7 doesn't amount to torture and that Iraqis are just sissies? Also, how do you know the people we are questioning have terrorist ties? You went 4 days in a row without sleeping? Somehow I feel to believe that. At all. And why do you bet the "people in question" didn't have to go that long? Why? WHYYYYYYYYYYYY?! Alright, it's time for you all to shut up about the "He-Doesn't-Agree-With-Us-So-He's-Bad" There will always be a place for the questioner in American politics, and it will never, NEVER, be a wrong one. And I must continue with the most obvious shard of all for my beliefs, the one which you apparently are bluntly ignorant of, that Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. I'm gonna go with T.J. before you. Sorry, that's the way the cookie crumbles. Awwwww poor detainees were kept awake. My go…
creator: Crimson
date: 2004-12-22T16:48:29-00:00

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description: Whoa, you need to stop watching FOX news if you believe Iraqis are sissies. Until you can prove that these people were detained because they had reasonable terrorist ties, you can't go around trumpeting that they did. I love this country, you fool. George Bush is just the worst "President" certainly since Hoover. And yes, I do make a point of stating my opinions on something if I believe it to be wrong, because that's what people do in this democracy. Quite frankly, I would be much happier if Nixon weren't a puppet, Reagan hadn't gone senile in office, Bush Sr. hadn't barfed in the lap of the Japanese ambassador, and if Bush Jr. hadn't gotten our soldiers into this war and created an economic situation where the U.S. in a couple years is going to be slaughtered by inflation. Out of the whole bunch, Bush Sr. was probably the best. Oh, and if I may, what is hypocritical about believing the actions of others are incorrect? No, the military is in fact not supposed to subject people to torture, either physical or mental, since we signed the Geneva Convention. The Constitution defines all signed treaties as the Law of the Land, and Geneva is no exception. No, I would not be disgruntled if a soldier died because we did not torture people enough. I would be disgruntled if a soldier died in a war started with lies, lies lies. [Clue for the clueless: Weapons of Mass Destruction] Also, what substantial proof do you have to determine that we are really getting good information out of these people? Finally, cursing doesn't make you seem any smarter.
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-22T16:55:51-00:00

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description: Crimson No, I haven't. I've seen pictures of people being SCARED by dogs. Typical. :rolleyes: The one picture from Abu Gharib I've seen with a dog in it is where the dog is practically leaping on the guy and snapping at him. Crimson Well then don't say that we have "NEVER" tortured/abused anyone. :rolleyes: Geneva Convention doesn't even apply to non-uniformed enemies anyway. Could you show me the section where the convention says that? Crimson Oh PLEASE... this is so straightforward. You think "hmm it wasn't a legit election" in 2000, well, Bush managed to convince enough people he could do the job and being a Republican rules to WIN, completely, even with over 50% of the popular vote which Clinton couldn't accomplish. LET IT GO ALREADY. But Gore had more of a popular vote in 2000... And it can't be proven that he convinved enough people because he got the conservative Supreme Court to not recount the ballots. But, please, let's stop this now and save it for another thread. Crimson Awwwww poor detainees were kept awake. My god, the ramifications will last for YEARS :rolleyes:.... you really lay it on thick, don't you. I should take a magnifiying glass to all Clinton's little wars and usage of military. But Patron Saint Clinton never did ANYTHING wrong except lie to the world about getting his weiner sucked off, right? I mean, someone who is willing to not only cheat on their wife and not even have the balls to confess when he was caught never did anything wrong in his entire life except for that. :rolleyes: It amounts to mental torture. That's how you mentally torture people. Please, take a magnifying glass to all of Clinton's wars. Reagan too. Like how he MINED Nicaragua's harbor and sold weapons to al Qaeda and trained Osama. All those stinger missiles and stuff in Afghanistan right now? Reagan put them there. Well, he more or less didn't do much wrong except have an affair with some lady which had no reflection WHATSOEVER on his performance in the office of pres…
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-22T17:02:31-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingEngi You have seen pictures from Abu Gharib of people being attacked by dogs, haven't you? That's what I would be led to believe is the most likely avenue. And torture is not just limited to being hit with a real big stick. Dictionary.com defines it as Excruciating physical or mental pain. That's what we were subjecting people at Abu Gharib to, and that wasn't the only incident, apparently. Dictionary.com says torture includes excrutiating mental pain. How is sleep deprivation excrutiating? I've been deprived of sleep for a couple days before. It was annoying, not excrutiating. Stress positions? Being hand cuffed to the floor doesn't count as excruciating in my book. Growling dogs? (Note: I've changed from barking to growling based on the news reports on this that I saw yesterday). I've had plenty of dogs bark at me. It can be scary, not excrutiating. Then there's the hood wearing. I can't see (pun intended) how being blindfolded for a while counts as excrutiating. SuperFlyingEngi How do you know what's in the executive order if you haven't seen it? That's the whole point of this article, some people in the FBI leaked documents to the ACLU, and the ACLU went to court suing under the Free Information Act or whatever to ascertain whether or not there was an executive order, because all the evidence seems to point to there being one. And that's where we are right now. They say in the article they know what's in the executive order. I'll admit, I mis-read that originally. I thought they meant they already had it when they were just saying they know what's in it, despite not having it. That lack of evidence is what they are citing when they say Bush authorized sleep deprivation, stress positions, etc. Citing evidence they didn't have confused me at first into thinking they had the evidence, I should have known better though. It never says they are after the executive order. At the end, the article says: Quote: The ACLU and its allies are scheduled to go to cou…
creator: NeoSaber
date: 2004-12-22T18:29:21-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingEngi Crimson No, I haven't. I've seen pictures of people being SCARED by dogs. Typical. :rolleyes: The one picture from Abu Gharib I've seen with a dog in it is where the dog is practically leaping on the guy and snapping at him. Crimson Well then don't say that we have "NEVER" tortured/abused anyone. :rolleyes: Geneva Convention doesn't even apply to non-uniformed enemies anyway. Could you show me the section where the convention says that? Crimson Oh PLEASE... this is so straightforward. You think "hmm it wasn't a legit election" in 2000, well, Bush managed to convince enough people he could do the job and being a Republican rules to WIN, completely, even with over 50% of the popular vote which Clinton couldn't accomplish. LET IT GO ALREADY. But Gore had more of a popular vote in 2000... And it can't be proven that he convinved enough people because he got the conservative Supreme Court to not recount the ballots. But, please, let's stop this now and save it for another thread. Crimson Awwwww poor detainees were kept awake. My god, the ramifications will last for YEARS :rolleyes:.... you really lay it on thick, don't you. I should take a magnifiying glass to all Clinton's little wars and usage of military. But Patron Saint Clinton never did ANYTHING wrong except lie to the world about getting his weiner sucked off, right? I mean, someone who is willing to not only cheat on their wife and not even have the balls to confess when he was caught never did anything wrong in his entire life except for that. :rolleyes: It amounts to mental torture. That's how you mentally torture people. Please, take a magnifying glass to all of Clinton's wars. Reagan too. Like how he MINED Nicaragua's harbor and sold weapons to al Qaeda and trained Osama. All those stinger missiles and stuff in Afghanistan right now? Reagan put them there. Well, he more or less didn't do much wrong except have an affair with some lady which had no reflection WHATSOEVER on his performance in th…
creator: cheesesoda
date: 2004-12-22T22:15:37-00:00

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description: EXAMPLE:
creator: DarkDemin
date: 2004-12-22T22:26:18-00:00

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type: item
description: Ouch... that has to hurt.
creator: Jaspah
date: 2004-12-22T22:54:45-00:00

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description: I have told you like 493 times that I don't watch FOX news... I read CNN.com for my news and nothing more. I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... I don't watch FOX... get it yet? If Clinton wasn't doing anything wrong then why were the Republicans all over him?
creator: Crimson
date: 2004-12-23T08:37:42-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingLiberalTool, I honestly don't know why you continue to post anything political anymore. You are a hypocritical tool of the Democratic Party. You always have been a hypocritical tool of the Democratic Party, and you always will be a hypocritical tool of the Democratic Party. Here, let me go through every post you have made thus far in this pathetic excuse for a thread you created so it's made plainly clear to you.... Quote: Yes, that's right. Seems as if "President" Bush authorized torture and this wasn't just a small isolated thing. But anyone who reads news already knew that. And guess what? This story will NEVER make the media outlets unless it snowballs, because they are not news. Don't feign yourselves into thinking they are. Why do you have "President" in quotation marks? Oh, wait, that's right, since Michael Moore told you to believe that the 2000 election wasn't legitimate, that's the honest-to-God... oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot I can't say "God" for fear of offending an atheist... honest-to-Clinton (because he's the closest thing to a "god" you Democrats have) truth, and there is no other way it can possibly be. Lord Moore said it, so it must be so. Bush stole the election, and that's just the way it is. Now that Lord Moore and the Infallible Church of the ACLU have told you to believe that Bush authorized "torture" (of which, by the way, you have a very pussified definition, but I'll get to that later), it must be true, and there is no contesting it. Moving on.... Quote: Well, how about you READ the document and decide for yourself? Oh, and the Geneva Convention CLEARLY outlines that we will not torture people and the Constitution CLEARLY outlines that all signed treaties are the law of the land. Americans are not somehow more "godly" or more deserving to live than non-Americans. We're all people. Get it through your conservative skull. You obviously never read the Geneva Convention before, or you'd know that terrorists get absolutely no protec…
creator: Hydra
date: 2004-12-23T09:00:04-00:00

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description: /me applauds loudly. Bravo, hydra! I read that whole thing, it was a brilliant dissection of the stereotypical liberal. It's kinda nice to have a perfect example of a Democrat soldier right here in our own forums to play with, isn't it?
creator: Crimson
date: 2004-12-23T10:47:30-00:00

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description: hydra1945 > SuperFlyingEngi damn dude......geez.....o man.....hey...Super?.....how does it feel to be proven wrong over and over and over and damn....I dont know how to describe this...O YEA! OWNED
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-23T13:14:19-00:00

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description: Quote: You obviously never read the Geneva Convention before, or you'd know that terrorists get absolutely no protection under it whatsoever. Except, of course for this provision... Quote: PART I GENERAL PROVISIONS Article 1 The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances. and... Quote: Clue for the fucking blind: WE FOUND WEAPONS OF FUCKING MASS DESTRUCTION!!! We did NOT start the war with "lies, lies, lies" like Lord Ted Kennedy will have to you believe. Now that we're there, we cannot leave! Get that through your thick skull!!! WMDs were found prior to the war starting? As well, I thought the war was to free Iraq, and the "found" WMDs were simply a bonus that could be used to justify an illegal invasion.
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-23T14:34:23-00:00

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creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-23T14:38:23-00:00

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description: The fact that you belittle the successes of the war is disgusting warranto. He makes a point that we found WMDs and you try to make that into a bad thing...bravo, take a seat next to the other Mindless Drone. Geneva Conventions ARTICLE 13 Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest. Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited. You fail to see that ensuring Mental Stability is in no place in this article. And lack of sleep, playing music, barking dogs, and sitting on the floor can hardly be deemed: "seriously endangering the health of the prisoner."
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-23T15:25:34-00:00

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description: warranto Except, of course for this provision... Quote: PART I GENERAL PROVISIONS Article 1 The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances. Not really. The incredibly flawed Geneva Convention doesn't even address the proper treatment for captured terrorists. Hell, it doesn't even address terrorists in general! They certainly don't count as prisoners of war, as you should know, because they don't meet the requirements explicitly put forth in article 4 quoted here (I highlighted key points of the article): Quote: Article 4 A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: 1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. 2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) That of carrying arms openly; (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. 3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. 4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed for…
creator: Hydra
date: 2004-12-23T18:31:14-00:00

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description: I suppose....perhaps i was a little too hasty to judge him like i do "Mr. Left" himself. Prolly cuz I have been hearing nothing but the most extreme of liberal bullshit for the last 2 days. I owe you an apology warranto, Im Sorry I called you a mindless Drone. I dont take back what I said to SuperFlyingEni tho, he represents the Democratic party like the Taliban does to Islam.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-23T19:37:17-00:00

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description: Nice Hydra! SuperFlyingFungi == pwned.
creator: xptek
date: 2004-12-23T20:12:13-00:00

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description: Rather than requote all that, I'll just point out the parts. In regards to this whole terrorists and prisoners of war bit. If Iraqi insurgents aren't being held as prisoners of war, what are they being held as? Even normal prisoners have certain rights that must be upheald. Quote: WMDs were found; there is no denying it, Warranto. They were found in Iraq and date back to years before Saddam's regime ever fell. One of the reasons the war was waged was because Saddam did not freely hand over his weapons of mass destruction that we knew he had, not because we couldn't find any. It was partly in an effort to enforce the flawed international law that you so closely cling to. Not according to the UN just prior to war being delcared. And that is all that really matters, regardless of what you may happen to think about the UN. Quote: It doesn't change the fact he was nitpicking at specific points of my post while seeming to ignore the general point of it. That is true, I was nitpicking. This is only because, while those in captivity have done unspeakable things (I'm assuming this as people are lableing them terrorists) and deserve what they are getting, the point is that it is still not the "right" thing to do, to which you appear to be arguing the alternative. Quote: The fact that you belittle the successes of the war is disgusting warranto. I'm not belittleing the success of the war, I support the war (the timing of the war is another thing though, but that is beside the point), that doesn;t make it any less than I have stated it as such. Quote: And lack of sleep, playing music, barking dogs, and sitting on the floor can hardly be deemed: "seriously endangering the health of the prisoner." Take a psychology course, and perhaps you'll think differently. These seemingly menial things can have a profound impact on a prisoners health. Both mental and physical. Over the short term, not so much, but over a period of time, most definatly. Of course, the context as to how these m…
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-23T23:09:33-00:00

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description: I want to make sure u see this warranto, cuz i feel pretty bad about it. gbull I owe you an apology warranto, Im Sorry I called you a mindless Drone
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-23T23:23:02-00:00

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type: item
description: meh, no harm no foul. I'm quite easy on the insults unless they're persistant.
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-23T23:31:09-00:00

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type: item
description: Javaxcx
creator: Vitaminous
date: 2004-12-23T23:40:17-00:00

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type: item
description: k, kewl beans.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-23T23:48:29-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SFE = pwnt on a forum, thats pretty bad.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-24T00:48:18-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: No, I've actually been playing with a great fluid simulator for the past two days, other people have semi-stood in for me, and quite frankly I don't have all the time that I used to have to post on these forums. Note how hydra's post up there was about 6 pages long. Also, have you all heard about the defamation of character and libel suit that John Kerry has against the Swift Boat Hoax?
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-24T01:03:20-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi Also, have you all heard about the defamation of character and libel suit that John Kerry has against the Swift Boat Hoax? Don't matter, he won't win. Swift Boat was just telling everyone the truth , and convinced at least a few people not to vote for that anti-american fool.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-24T02:02:42-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: SuperFlyingEngi No, I've actually been playing with a great fluid simulator for the past two days, other people have semi-stood in for me, and quite frankly I don't have all the time that I used to have to post on these forums. Note how hydra's post up there was about 6 pages long. Ah, okay, so now you're implying that I have no life? Just because I took about an hour and a half out of my life to write that to put you where you belong? Do you think I was just spontaneously driven to tear your pathetic excuses of arguments apart? Do you think I wrote that as a result of your posts in this thread alone? If your hypocrisy and mindlessness had been contained in this thread alone, I would never have gone through all the trouble I did in writing that harsh appraisal of your posts. The problem goes much further back than this. The problem goes all the way back to the first post you ever wrote in the Politics/Hot Issues forum. The problem is that you have posted nothing but the same propaganda that's been force-fed to you by the mainstream media since day fucking one!!! Each and every time you would make a post as mind-numbingly ridiculous and hypocritical as all the others you have posted, we have called you on it ("we" being the dedicated conservatives of the forum). Time and again, your hypocrisy would be proven and exposed, yet you would continue in bombarding us with your outrageous propaganda and mindless crap, while in the process accusing us Republicans of "blindly following 'President' Bush" simply because we disagree with the utter bullshit you spew out of the asshole you call a mouth! I don't think you've ever made a single post recognizing anything good that George W. Bush has done ever since he first took office. Hell, even I am willing to admit that Clinton made some correct decisions in office! No, the Democratic Party has told you hate anything and everything Bush does in office because he "stole" the 2000 election, so like a sheep you will blindly follow th…
creator: Hydra
date: 2004-12-24T06:08:25-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: It wouldn't be the first time he's changed the subject when he can't win. It's either that or "I need to talk to my dad some more." I wonder if his dad is the mindless drone and SFE doesn't want to disappoint him by thinking about what we say.
creator: Crimson
date: 2004-12-24T08:52:04-00:00

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description: hydra1945 Ah, okay, so now you're implying that I have no life? Just because I took about an hour and a half out of my life to write that to put you where you belong? No, I'm not implying that you're a loser at all. I'm just saying that I've been busy working on film projects and I need to hurry up. Crimson It wouldn't be the first time he's changed the subject when he can't win. It's either that or "I need to talk to my dad some more." Oh, honestly. I haven't changed the subject. It's not like there is much more to be debated here anyways, it's come down to a "You're a sucky American!" What needs to be done is more or less to wait and see what the ACLU finds. And Crimson, I've only ever said that I need to have a word with my dad twice, on issues I don't entirely comprehend. Would you prefer that I just make things up on the fly? And if I truly did agree that torturing soldiers outside the U.S. was ok, yeah, I probably would side with you all. Also, The Washington Post War Crimes Thursday, December 23, 2004; Page A22 THANKS TO a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, thousands of pages of government documents released this month have confirmed some of the painful truths about the abuse of foreign detainees by the U.S. military and the CIA -- truths the Bush administration implacably has refused to acknowledge. Since the publication of photographs of abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in the spring the administration's whitewashers -- led by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld -- have contended that the crimes were carried out by a few low-ranking reservists, that they were limited to the night shift during a few chaotic months at Abu Ghraib in 2003, that they were unrelated to the interrogation of prisoners and that no torture occurred at the Guantanamo Bay prison where hundreds of terrorism suspects are held. The new documents establish beyond any doubt that every part of this cover story is false. Though they represent only p…
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-24T13:42:29-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: You see, your going to a moron to try and understand the issue, your father is only going to fill you with more hatred for America and its soilders, and basicly he's only mis-informing you. GO FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO TALK POLOTICS WITH, YOUR FATHER IS OBVIOUSLY A NUT CASE WHEN IT COMES TO THEM.
creator: cowmisfit
date: 2004-12-24T14:15:02-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingEngi And Crimson, I've only ever said that I need to have a word with my dad twice, on issues I don't entirely comprehend. So look it up yourself. IF you cannot think for yourself then you are the tool everyone says you are. Your problem is that your father has force-fed you all this liberal bullshit and hasn't allowed you to think for yourself long enough to say....damn, this doesnt make any fucking sense, why am I still following someone who will never be president? Take this as constructive critisism because its not meant to be an attack on your character.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-24T14:28:13-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Crimson I have told you like 493 times that I don't watch FOX news... I read CNN.com for my news and nothing more. Sorry for any confusion, but I was referring to the guy above you, who called Iraqis sissies. Aright, hydra, here you go... hydra1945 Why do you have "President" in quotation marks? Oh, wait, that's right, since Michael Moore told you to believe that the 2000 election wasn't legitimate, that's the honest-to-God... oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot I can't say "God" for fear of offending an atheist... honest-to-Clinton (because he's the closest thing to a "god" you Democrats have) truth, and there is no other way it can possibly be. Lord Moore said it, so it must be so. Bush stole the election, and that's just the way it is. No, Moore's movie came out quite a while after the election. Quite a while after I had thought this through and seen events unfold. Also, I think you're typecasting Christmas-bashing with Democrats a bit too much here. It's not exactly a stated goal of the DNC. I actually didn't get all that much out of F 9/11. Just another movie. hydra1945 Now that Lord Moore and the Infallible Church of the ACLU have told you to believe that Bush authorized "torture" (of which, by the way, you have a very pussified definition, but I'll get to that later), it must be true, and there is no contesting it. Well, you and your "crew" certainly flat out deny any possibility of it and that's the way it must be. Don't pretend that you're leaning over the fence and I'm not. hydra1945 You obviously never read the Geneva Convention before, or you'd know that terrorists get absolutely no protection under it whatsoever. I believe warranto touched on this one. hydra1945 I'm amazed how you have claimed in the past to be more "open-minded" than conservatives, then you imply that all conservatives are white-supremacists. Not very open-minded, is it? You really showed those racist Republicans how open-minded you are! Great job in showing just how much of a hypocrite you …
creator: SuperFlyingEngi
date: 2004-12-24T19:07:45-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: cowmisfit SuperFlyingEngi Also, have you all heard about the defamation of character and libel suit that John Kerry has against the Swift Boat Hoax? Don't matter, he won't win. Swift Boat was just telling everyone the truth , and convinced at least a few people not to vote for that anti-american fool. You really need to stop calling everything you don't agree with anti-american.
creator: xptek
date: 2004-12-24T19:27:45-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Quote: You really need to stop calling everything you don't agree with anti-american. This is the most valuable thing you've ever said.
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-24T20:05:24-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Gah, I'm trying to take that as a compliment.
creator: xptek
date: 2004-12-24T22:16:02-00:00

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description: SuperFlyingEngi hydra1945 We use the electoral college to elect our presidents. The popular vote is literally meaningless. Crimson just mentioned the popular vote to make a point that you obviously missed. Crimson didn't make much sense when she touched on the popular vote. I didn't quite understand what she meant, and I'm not sure you did, either. Crimson Oh PLEASE... this is so straightforward. You think "hmm it wasn't a legit election" in 2000, well, Bush managed to convince enough people he could do the job and being a Republican rules to WIN, completely, even with over 50% of the popular vote which Clinton couldn't accomplish. LET IT GO ALREADY. Bush managed to convince enough people that he could do that job, and the Republican party convinced enough people that Repuiblican is the way to be. He won, completely, even with over 50% of the popular vote. Clinton couldn't manage 50% of the popular vote. I do not agree with my fellow Republicans who say that the war is for humanitarian reasons. I will stick by the WMD reasoning that's been there since day 1. I will use the Duelfer report outlining the vast corruption in the United Nations that prevented more countries from supporting action against the guy who gave them lots of money as the reasoning why all countries in the UN weren't with us. I would say that if my grandma died, not one of you would truly care about it, though you might feel bad for me for like a few minutes. I don't really honestly give a shit about a couple prisoners being kept awake. It's retarded. They need to send Sheriff Joe Arpaio from Phoenix over there.
creator: Crimson
date: 2004-12-24T23:36:34-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Quote: Either that or because we killed those terrorist's families when we shelled the Bekaa Valley with the U.S.S. North Carolina's battle cannons. Engi, check your facts before you post please. the USS North Carolina was decomissioned on June 27 1947. You are either making things up, or you have the wrong battleship. Quote: Yeah, Saddam was a small-scale dictator. One what size did he kill people heere? Surely not 100,000 civilians or more, like the number we've probably killd from bombing and fighting, although the President won't release any numbers, because whenever he does they make him look bad. Again, read the Post Editorial I C&P'ed a couple posts up. Come back when you have the REAL numbers, will you? And if you truely believe that the US military, as professional and well-trained as it is, has killed 100,000 civilians, you need to re-aquaint yourself with reality. People holding weapons do not count as civilians. What, you want our troops to stand there while some goon with an AK-47 blasts them, just because he isn't wearing a uniform? Come on. Anyone who poses a threat to our soldiers is NOT a civilian. I really wish people would stop trying to paint the US as a gang of baby-killing thugs to get an anti-war message across... anyone who knows someone in the military, or anyone who IS in the military, will tell you that our soldiers would NEVER intentionally attack unarmed civilians. Every effort is made to cut down the possibility of civilian casualties.
creator: NukeIt15
date: 2004-12-28T00:32:32-00:00

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description: warranto In regards to this whole terrorists and prisoners of war bit. If Iraqi insurgents aren't being held as prisoners of war, what are they being held as? Even normal prisoners have certain rights that must be upheald. They're being held as captured terrorists; that's what they are, at least. As has been established, they cannot be held as prisoners of war since they do not meet the requirements to be considered as such according to the Geneva Convention, which is the legal document to which we are relating. The proper treatment or "rights" of captured terrorists (or the existence of, for that matter) is not outlined in the Geneva Convention, so they receive no coverage under said document. To my knowledge, there is actually no document whatsoever that really dictates how we're supposed to treat these captured terrorists (if there is, please let me know and show it to me), and it seems that we're not drilling holes into their ankles, pulling their teeth out with pliers, and gouging their eyes out (three examples of types of torture Saddam's interrogators used on their prisoners (THAT'S real torture)) out of our good grace, even though the bastards certainly deserve it. Quote: Not according to the UN just prior to war being delcared. And that is all that really matters, regardless of what you may happen to think about the UN. Not really since all that really matters is the truth; whether or not they were found before or after the war is irrelevant. The truth is he had them, and the programs for their development were just waiting to be restarted as soon as enough people in the U.N. were paid off through the Oil-for-Food program and sanctions were lifted. Quote: That is true, I was nitpicking. This is only because, while those in captivity have done unspeakable things (I'm assuming this as people are lableing them terrorists) and deserve what they are getting, the point is that it is still not the "right" thing to do, to which you appear to be arguing the alternat…
creator: Hydra
date: 2004-12-30T11:16:01-00:00

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description: hydra1945 ...and the programs for their development were just waiting to be restarted as soon as enough people in the U.N. were paid off through the Oil-for-Food program and sanctions were lifted. Just a note on this... Those sanctions and the sanctions of the NPT are the only "legal" stipulations holding Iraq back from producing nuclear WMDs. (The NPT only deals with nuclear weapons, as far as I've read). Technically, Iraq is ALLOWED to have restarted those programs after sanctions were up if and ONLY if they declare their arsonals to the United Nations. Something that we can debate forever, but can never conclude upon. I could go into the technicalities on why it isn't the United State's authority to call any state on that issue, but that is another discussion.
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-30T17:40:16-00:00

As if we could pretend this wouldn't come around...
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description: Quote: Who gives a shit about the terrorists' well-being? When U.S. soldiers' lives are on the line, every measure possible should be taken to ensure their survival. If that means scaring a few captured terrorists with some german shepards to get them to divulge whatever helpful information they may have, so be it. Quite interesting, considering I believe America is up in arms about people being taken hostage by the Iraqi "terrorists". I guess this falls under the "It's ok, as long as it doesn't happen to me" category. If you're not willing to admit that this is the exact same reasoning that the other side uses, and accept that it is ok, your arguement holds no strength. Quote: Not really since all that really matters is the truth; whether or not they were found before or after the war is irrelevant. The truth is he had them, and the programs for their development were just waiting to be restarted as soon as enough people in the U.N. were paid off through the Oil-for-Food program and sanctions were lifted. And the truth is that the ends to not justify the means. The war was entered into illegally, no way around that. Whether or not something incrimminating was found as a result does not matter. After all, if the police force their way into a home and perform an illegal seach, what usually happens? Quote: No, TERRORISTS are what we're fighting right now in Iraq. Not "insurgents" or "Iraqi militants" or "resistance fighters" or any other prettied-up term the anti-war media might play up. These are TERRORISTS. Keeping people up all night is NOT torture IN ANY NORMAL SENSE OF THE WORD!!!! Gasp! A country's people are defending themselves from an invading force by any means available to them! Terrorists!
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-30T18:45:14-00:00

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description: warranto If you're not willing to admit that this is the exact same reasoning that the other side uses, and accept that it is ok, your arguement holds no strength. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to recognize that they are utilizing a double standard for American or coalition forces when in fact there is none.
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-30T19:07:08-00:00

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description: how is there no double standard? France gets praise for utilizing similar tactices during their occupation in WWII, but when Iraq does it, it's the ultimate evil? Note: I said similar, not same.
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-30T20:02:31-00:00

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description: Ah, but you're looking at it from the die-hard war supporter's view. Objectively, there is none.
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-30T20:10:37-00:00

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description: warranto Gasp! A country's people are defending themselves from an invading force by any means available to them! Terrorists! No shit. If someone invaded my country I'd respond in the same way as the Iraqis have.
creator: Deathgod
date: 2004-12-30T20:19:24-00:00

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description: That's interesting- considering that the majority of insurgents that have been killed or captured so far weren't from Iraq. They even found several French citizens in the pile. Defending their own country, my ass. It isn't their own country any more than China is mine. Tell me, how many soldiers have you talked to before blabbering on about "how bad" it is over there? Any at all? I know a few who are close family friends who have served/are serving in Iraq, and they don't paint so dark a picture as you do. I keep hearing stories of towns getting runningw ater for the first time, schools being re-opened for the first time in years...funny how you never mention anything good. It's almost as if you don't want to believe anything good is happening at all. Funny, that.
creator: NukeIt15
date: 2004-12-30T22:14:07-00:00

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description: NukeIt15 That's interesting- considering that the majority of insurgents that have been killed or captured so far weren't from Iraq. They even found several French citizens in the pile. Defending their own country, my ass. It isn't their own country any more than China is mine. Except the problem you people have is you view them as one solid terrorist army. There are rebels involved, Iraqi fundamentalists, terrorists, and the like among the "insurgent" force. An insurgent in this war isn't necessarily a terrorist, especially if they fall into the Iraqi fundamentalist category, and it is extremely uninformed and prejudice to think that they are. Remember, it was YOUR coalition that lept head first into this invasion illegally, fucked up the standing recognized sovereignty, and established YOUR ideal representative government to be recognized as legit until this election happens-- whenever it happens. As far as those rebels and fundamentalists are concerned, Iraq is still their nation and do not recognize the government established by this coup d'etats. That does NOT make them terrorists by any reasoning. Quote: Tell me, how many soldiers have you talked to before blabbering on about "how bad" it is over there? Any at all? I know a few who are close family friends who have served/are serving in Iraq, and they don't paint so dark a picture as you do. I keep hearing stories of towns getting runningw ater for the first time, schools being re-opened for the first time in years...funny how you never mention anything good. It's almost as if you don't want to believe anything good is happening at all. Funny, that. This isn't even remotely on topic to what we were discussing. No one denies the improvement of life in Iraq, and nor do we want it to stop. However, when you look at the larger picture, past, present, and future, the basis of that improvement stemmed from grounds that couldn't possibly justify it legally.
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-30T22:33:39-00:00

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description: Javaxcx No one denies the improvement of life in Iraq, and nor do we want it to stop. However, when you look at the larger picture, past, present, and future, the basis of that improvement stemmed from grounds that couldn't possibly justify it legally. who says it was illegal? the UN? that corrupt mob that hordes money in exchange for peoples happiness, health, and freedom? If thats what you mean by illegal then call me a criminal. In the end, The Iraqi people wont care how it came to pass, only that they can now embrace freedom. A right that should have been theirs at birth.
creator: Jecht
date: 2004-12-31T01:09:23-00:00

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description: =[DT =gbull=[L]=]who says it was illegal? the UN? that corrupt mob that hordes money in exchange for peoples happiness, health, and freedom? If thats what you mean by illegal then call me a criminal. In the end, The Iraqi people wont care how it came to pass, only that they can now embrace freedom. A right that should have been theirs at birth. This is sheer hypocrisy. How can you support the actions of the coalition, a coalition comprised of countries that have done the very thing you're accusing the U.N. of doing throughout their histories. And while it is likely true that the U.N. has done what you've stated, that does not mean that the U.N. prioritizes what you've mentioned over people all of the time. Who do you think plays the critical role in humanitarian organization and deployment and multilateral diplomatic negotiations worldwide? Here's a hint, it's not the United States alone. As for the war being illegal. As a matter of fact it is. Another thing that amazes me is that you people tend to forget that YOU ALL SIGNED THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS. YOU AGREED TO THE TERMS WITHIN IT. Not only that, you've signed AND ratified them. That means, when Resolution 687 says "Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq..." and the charter says "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations," you are NOT legally allowed to violate Iraqi government or territory no matter how evil you believe it to be. Does that mean I don't wish for the Iraqi people to be given the right to the same liberties that I supposedly have? Of course not. They, as far as "I" am concerned deserve the same rights and benefits as I do. The law doesn't work that way. What more, you've gone one over and affirmed th…
creator: Javaxcx
date: 2004-12-31T01:51:43-00:00

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description: Javaxcx Ah, but you're looking at it from the die-hard war supporter's view. Objectively, there is none. erm, I thought the die-hard war supporter view would be that Iraqi fighters ARE terrorists...
creator: warranto
date: 2004-12-31T04:38:00-00:00

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description: Very off topic, but... Quote: Osama Bin Laden is offering 25000 for anyone willing to be a suicide bomber. So far none of those four people that took the offer have appeared to collect their cash.
creator: glyde51
date: 2004-12-31T04:40:47-00:00