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Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word
Straight from my C&C95, special manual. Quote: The commando infantry are the best of the best. You will find these individuals highly skilled at demolitions ops and sniping enemy infantry. GDI Elite Forces will allocate them to missions as needed, you cannot direct EVA to deploy them at your barracks. GDI has limited reserves of these heroes, so use them with great care. Keep them away from armor, as their sniping equipment can barely scratch vehicles and the armor will quickly waste them. Commandos are for killing infantry and blowing up facilities, not staring down tanks. Basically, you need to have full situational awareness of your commandos whenever they allocated to your engagement. Most of these swashbukling gladiators wield color phrases even better than their guns. Do not be alarmed by such insubordinations. We have tried suggestion that they amend in their comportment, but this has always resulted in serious bodily harm to the military police assigned to the task. That's from Westwood themselves. Argue with that if you can...
I've *always* said I thought that the ramjet was overpowered versus heavy armor (I could see it doing slight damage to light armor, but nothing near what it does currently). The normal sniper rifle (deadeye/bh sniper) does too much damage as well. It's total BS that I am sitting in a huge metal piece of armor (mobart for instance), and some guy a mile away destroys me with the equivalent to a deer rifle...come on :rolleyes: I think the normal sniper rifle should do zero damage to any armor or buildings, and that the ramjet should do slight damage to light armor but little to none above that. And the massive points awarding for shooting at tanks should be nerfed too.
Go ahead and change it then
Intressting. But i knew the tanya/commando couldnt do any damage against tanks/choppers. But then again a Orca would rape any chacracter if there wasnt a ramjet. Unless ure playing ina 50 player server. where theres 2381428 ramjets on bridge ye.. go a bit further of the wall and ure 6 feet down the ground Afcourse its a nice idea to change it. But make it like a mod ore something ore only serversided. And gameplay would change drasticly..
Yeah with nerfed ramjets homing rockets need to be implemented so infantry have a chance against orcas and apaches
If you can make stuff like MRLS and Stanks good against air, that's great... since, correct me if I'm wrong, they are supposed to be anyway?
Renegade is based to some time after Tiberian Dawn happenings. And some infantry and vehicles are a bit different that in TD. But I must agree that snipers are overpowered specially against humvee and buggy and that is really stupid. Against aircraft they are very balanced because everyone would use aircrafts then. There is not many good units against aircrafts and even mammoth tank aa weapons are somehow ineffective.
Re: Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word
Aircraftkiller Straight from my C&C95, special manual. Quote: The commando infantry are the best of the best. You will find these individuals highly skilled at demolitions ops and sniping enemy infantry. GDI Elite Forces will allocate them to missions as needed, you cannot direct EVA to deploy them at your barracks. GDI has limited reserves of these heroes, so use them with great care. Keep them away from armor, as their sniping equipment can barely scratch vehicles and the armor will quickly waste them. Commandos are for killing infantry and blowing up facilities, not staring down tanks. Basically, you need to have full situational awareness of your commandos whenever they allocated to your engagement. Most of these swashbukling gladiators wield color phrases even better than their guns. Do not be alarmed by such insubordinations. We have tried suggestion that they amend in their comportment, but this has always resulted in serious bodily harm to the military police assigned to the task. That's from Westwood themselves. Argue with that if you can... I guess that's pretty cool, so let's let Havoc and Sakura blow up buildings, since it says so there.
They can. If a beacon is planted, there are few infantry who can do a better job of covering it.
So....when r u gonna give a havoc an Uberpowered c4 that can blow up buildings with one bomb? point is - C&C Tiberian Dawn is NOT Renegade whether its based on it or not. The way they made Havoc, is the way they wanted to make him. And that also says u cannot direct EVA to deploy them at your barracks....but they made that possible in Renegade. In my eyes, changing the damage values to Havoc would be a crime against the community. Some stuff should be left alone...
It should be changed asap, by Releasing a CP1.1 patch or something.. About the C4 though, I'm not sure. Maybe making havoc/sakura's C4 do 1.5 times the normal damage would balance that issue out?
Just remember though, little damage does not mean 0 damage. On the level where your GDI commando had to destroy the ******** facility, I was able to draw a light tank to the river, sit on the opposite side; and with the game speed on high, take out the light tank.
=[DT =gbull=[L]=] Some stuff should be left alone... I feel the same way. This is such a contraversial subject that is always arises in huge flame wars and topics with pages of posts. The only real way to see how this could effect gameplay is to try it out on a server for at least a week. The results may prove shocking to either side of this argument.
Quote: Commandos are for killing infantry and blowing up facilities , not staring down tanks when do the commando's get more c4's?
m1a1_abrams "Special manual"? What's that? Here is a scan taken from the "Official Guide To Command & Conquer" published By Rick Ranucci, Copyright (C) 1995
Have you ever seen the tremors2? I think the gun nut guy is named burt. Anyway remember that gun he used to take out that one walking graboid. It was like super powered and not only did it blow the graboid to pieces but it cut right threw the truck behind it. THATS WHAT GUN SAKURA AND HAVOC ARE USING!
JP Intressting. But then again a Orca would rape any chacracter if there wasnt a ramjet. Ever play in a server while I'm in there? I'll own snipers just as fast as regular infantry. The only infantry weapons that the Aircraft should fear is the AV weapons, Laser Chain Gun, Laser Rifle, Rocket launcher, Railgun, and Personal Ion Cannon. The PIC and Railgun do MORE damage per shot than a n00bjet. But n00bjetters don't seem to have the skill to use them. Devinoch told us in server durring the air beta that Westwood wanted to make the rockets track but they were being rushed to get the patch out because of the n00b whiners. The n00bjet was a fast change that was NEVER intended to be the anti air weapon.
Maybe things would be different if aircraft had to reload, or at least had a clip size of some sort so that they couldn't just hold the trigger down and go. They'd have a small period where they're unable to keep firing... Something to consider: In TD, Apaches raped infantry; they were VERY good at taking out commandoes. Orcas couldn't do it so easily though. They were better at attacking tanks and structures.
It's possible to make rockets home against vehicles, and not versus infantry, right?
You can't try to make it EXACTLY like the C&C commando... if you did, he'd never miss an enemy, right?
IceSword7 Have you ever seen the tremors2? I think the gun nut guy is named burt. Anyway remember that gun he used to take out that one walking graboid. It was like super powered and not only did it blow the graboid to pieces but it cut right threw the truck behind it. THATS WHAT GUN SAKURA AND HAVOC ARE USING! You're being unusually coherent here, but I'm betting that gun "the Elephant Gun", they called it, didn't have infinite range, and wouldn't do more damage than a rocket launcher.
change it only if you can re-implement the homing missles, if you cant, leave it just as it is, or at least lower the damage done to vehicles by the ramjet to compensate for its uber-raping of air units.
What needs to be done anyway is, -Nod rifle soldier damage increased to that of GDI's rifle soldier against light armour, making them as useful against light vehicles such as the apache and orca, but with the same firepower against other infantry (so for example the gdi soldier will still be better than the nod soldier face to face). -Next, the aircraft themselves need to have limited ammunition and a damage of 0 against crushing. helipads need to be added to re-equip and heal them. -The ramjet's damage against CnCVehicleLight needs to be thirded down. The damage against skinflesh and shieldkevlar (infantry) should be made 1.8 (180) of the normal sniper rifle, allowing normal soldiers to survive a hit but still allowing any soldiers to be killed in 2 hits. -Homing missiles must be added for both sides' rocket soldier and GDI's gunner. right click should fire a standard missile. (sweet, silver's allowed as a colour)
I guess the last paragraph was intentionally left out of the original post.. The one where it says the "selected" commando can level a building? So yea, sure... take away their 10 points per shot on armor, and load them up with enough C4 to take out a building alone.. You know.. cause it's really important that we make the game EXACTLY like the '95 version if we want it to be fun at all... Speaking of that, when are you going to allow me to create 100 infantry in Renegade and group them for an attack?
Yes, it was intentionally left out because there was no need for the same point to be made again in the post. You don't have to have RTS levels of soldiers to retain RTS balance. Otherwise, why keep the semi-RTS feel to the game? This game was touted as being the original in first person and it's not even close... It is not that hard to keep the same gameplay from the first game and port it into first person. It stays balanced, NOTHING gets overpowered, and everyone who liked the original is happy... That's several hundred thousand people, most of whom don't play this game anymore for several reasons. Off the top of my head, the reason I see the most is "Renegade plays like shit and looks bad, I'd rather go play something else that's balanced at least..."
To be fair, the ramjet sniper rifle did not exist in CNC95. Then again, neither did quite a bit of other things in Renegade. The repair gun included. Or tiberium rifles. Citing the CNC95 manual to connote possible algorithms to modify Renegade to makes little to no sense because you would have to eliminate just about half of what makes Renegade its own unique entity.
flyingfox What needs to be done anyway is, -Nod rifle soldier damage increased to that of GDI's rifle soldier against light armour, making them as useful against light vehicles such as the apache and orca, but with the same firepower against other infantry (so for example the gdi soldier will still be better than the nod soldier face to face). -Next, the aircraft themselves need to have limited ammunition and a damage of 0 against crushing. helipads need to be added to re-equip and heal them. -The ramjet's damage against CnCVehicleLight needs to be thirded down. The damage against skinflesh and shieldkevlar (infantry) should be made 1.8 (180) of the normal sniper rifle, allowing normal soldiers to survive a hit but still allowing any soldiers to be killed in 2 hits. -Homing missiles must be added for both sides' rocket soldier and GDI's gunner. right click should fire a standard missile. (sweet, silver's allowed as a colour) Why would someone use standard missles when they have homing,and it's not possible to make them home on vehicles only. The ramjet is fine,yes it's a little overpowering against light vehicles,but with a tech repairing a mob art or a mrls,it can take out a havoc or sakura with a shot or 2. You guys have to remember this is a FPS, and Havoc is the "main character" of the SP game, Thus he is an overpowered character....and one alot of people will use. If anything add a bit more armor/health on a orca/apache....this giving the pilot 2 shots extra to find cover....I found this a very good way of balancing things in a few of my maps....the weapons are fine on the orca/apache. A havoc pointwhoring isnt going to win you MVP....A mob art or MRLS point whoring will!...and they are alot cheaper. This game has done well with it's players for the most part, and the gameplay of Renegade is very unique, Tribes maybe Planetside is as close as it gets, Yet I still think most people that have played all 3 enjoy Renegade the most.
Whether or not it's a FPS is irrelevant, there are plenty of games that hybridize RTS\FPS and still play balanced, unlike Renegade. A lot of the people who think n00b cannons are balanced are hiding behind a security blanket, because without it, they'd have to use something that takes more time and more effort to use instead of simply pointing in someone's general direction and hitting them with the force of an anti-tank missile... The weapons on the Orca and Apache are not fine. They are overpowered and allow the units to hover over a target and constantly bombard it with gunfire. They are almost as bad as the n00b cannons are, except the n00b cannons don't have flashing red lights with easily heard sounds giving them away from 300 meters. Don't even forget the useless Transport Helicopter. You might as well dig yourself a grave six feet under before you get into one, so you have a place to rest when you're blown away by the n00b cannons doing their flicker dance shit on the bridge in City Flying or in several areas on Walls Flying. While CounterStrike: Source has something similar to the n00b cannon, the AWP is not almost unstoppable. The people using it do not get a huge health increase. The AWP has inaccuracy. It will not hit every single time you fire, ESPECIALLY when you're running. The AWP has a single shot bolt action, the n00b cannon has four shots with no recoil, no inaccuracy, and allows you to hit EVERYTHING you see... The range of a n00b cannon is 300 meters, and the furthest you can see in Renegade is 300 meters. The AWP doesn't cause you to flicker around side to side, being practically impossible to hit with a skilled shot. The sniper rifles in Renegade allow this. So lets recap. Not only do "snipers" get huge damage bonuses, get mega points (YES you can get MVP while being a n00b cannon user, all it takes is shooting tanks and infantry all game) from every target except buildings, and have enormous health\armor ratings... They also allow you to be basically impervious to fire unless someone runs you over, or gets a lucky shot on you while you're flickering around at warp nine. All for $1,000, and the fucking Mammoth Tank gives a n00b cannon about 15 points a shot for a tank that costs $1,500... Yeah, lets throw out the RTS balance. Where aircraft don't destroy everything unless en-masse, and where snipers don't destroy everything... Lets just embrace the worst gameplay seen since Monster Truck Madness instead.
Quote: there are plenty of games that hybridize RTS\FPS and still play balanced More specific please? Quote: The AWP doesn't cause you to flicker around side to side, being practically impossible to hit with a skilled shot. The sniper rifles in Renegade allow this. Well this is one thing we all wish was fixed, maybe BHS could do something with the netcode. I think if that was fixed alone, It would tidy up this sniper situation greatly. No game is perfect, C&C_Renegade is Still a fun game, yes it could be improved in a ton of area's...but with it's current level setting's theres nothing you can do except make vehicles give 0 damage points...and that's not going to go over well with alot of players....which is why BHS wouldnt release such a patch. If theres ever another Renegade, Let's just hope they have been listening to what we have discussed......Im all for another C&C FPS on a more up to date engine(along with more options for settings),If C&C 3 is to really be released let's hope they find the support to even continue with the C&C Franchise.... EA really needs to step in and realize what they have here....The way westwood had taken a RTS and put it together in a FPS atmosphere is very fun and playable, even if it's not up to some of your standards. This game is still pretty much by itself, in terms of actual massive MP online game objectives....if EA doesnt react soon someone WILL duplicate the style this game holds.
IceSword7 Have you ever seen the tremors2? I think the gun nut guy is named burt. Anyway remember that gun he used to take out that one walking graboid. It was like super powered and not only did it blow the graboid to pieces but it cut right threw the truck behind it. THATS WHAT GUN SAKURA AND HAVOC ARE USING! That'd be this gun. http://www.phoenixcommand.com/Boys55atr.htm
Titan1x77 Havoc is the "main character" of the SP game, Thus he is an overpowered character....and one alot of people will use.
Kinda takes away the point of using anything else, doesn't it? If you think you can't get MVP using nothing but a n00bjet to shoot tanks you're not damaging, I'm guessing you never played in Fastc0nn a few months ago. It's all people did...
A gun such as the one in that link sounds like it needed at least two men to operate. I know a single man can use it if it is set up on a bipod, but even then they aren't taking much of the weight it costs. It says in those stats, 36.6, which will be a measurement of pounds. I know this because the M60 weight is measured as HALF (HALF!!) of this anti tank gun's on this site. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m60e3.htm Have any of you ever picked up a kilogram weight? Perhaps in high school for an experiment? 36.6 pounds is the equivelant to around sixteen kilograms. A man could not carry that shit around himself and fire without any recoil, whilst jumping at the same time. the idea is ludicrous. furthermore, to have an accurate shot it takes time to line up the target. to do that first of all you need to be on the ground with the thing. with the ramjet you can put out a bullet every 1.33 seconds with deadly accuracy every time. reload 2.80s. Although in defense, the ramjet doesn't fire anything explosive and will not kill an advanced soldier in one hit. but did they really use those anti-tank weapons against soldiers? You can use an anti tank gun against charging infantry on one mission in call of duty, but you'd only kill if the round (which looked like a mini mortar hit when it hit the ground) hit right beside him. I'd rather say the pic/railgun is closer to this anti tank gun in terms of damage. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/k.livingston/ptrs41.jpg
36.6 pounds is very light, I chuck things half that weight 39 ft, and i am not as big as havoc. yes it would give you a recoil but u gotta realise that this is a freakin game and real-word physics might not apply here, It would be nice, but thats not the way the world always works. Also, AirCraftKiller, I agree that the transport heli is way to weak. In fact I dont think anyone would be against giveing it an armor upgrade of probably double the amount it possesses now.
That would only make it last twice as long, which is not enough to allow it to do its job. An APC lasts much longer, is 200 credits less, AND has armament!
For starters, allow it to carry five passengers in addition to the pilot, instead of three... (That could also be applied to the APC of course...) If it isn't shot down, a chinook full of engis = remotes = building destruction in a flash. Won't work everytime since the Chinook will get shot down if the enemy is organised. But that sounds like a tactic should be in Renegade... Won't work every time, but when it does work, destruction guaranteed.
i really havinet been readin these threads just cause they go on for ever lol but in real life.. if i take a high power sniper gun and shoot a few times at the engine block.. it will kill the humvee
Would it blow it up faster than a railgun or a rocket launcher would? I seriously fucking doubt it.
Why not give the trans heli guns like seen in cut scenes, ect? People wan't things that give em point's, the trans heli is the one thing in ren that can't give that. So give it something to shoot with or extra armour... Or both
It would be cool if passengers could fire outside with whatever gun they have, but I doubt that's possible.
It's not what i ment... *searches for picture...* Edit: http://www.n00bstories.com/image.view.php?id=1351082631 That + armor = good.
Spoony Would it blow it up faster than a railgun or a rocket launcher would? I seriously fucking doubt it. With that comment it sounds as if you're viewing Renegade realistically. Realistically this game wouldn't be fun, because yes a rail gun or a rocket launcher would do incredible damage to most vehicles. Your argument against the ramjet being too strong is to complain about lesser weapons not being able to do it as well. My only problem with the ramjet is the point system. I believe it should be allowed to take down lightly armored vehicles with ease, it fits well into the games balance. The character costs $1000, so it should be able to do more than easily kill infantry. It is a good counter to people who constantly bombard structures with artillery, as well as the only effect counter against aircraft. An aircraft can completely destroy all infantry but the super snipers and tanks are impotent against them. Also, in a 1v1 battle between a orca/apache and a ramjet soldier, the orca can quite often kill the sniper or avoid being killed. The ramjet is fine, and if someone wants to spend the whole game point whoring with them then I wish them good luck and I hope they have a great time, I'd much rather play the game.
You haven't been reading enough of the thread dude. without the ramjet being of much use there will be homing rockets, fixed aircraft, the like. my only question is why it hasn't been done yet. Renegade would be AWESOME with these changes. But getting rid of the ramjet without doing anything else is crap. play a game or 2 on the hazteam server on walls fly or city fly and see for yourself
Using Scott's thinking, the Mammoth Tank is $1,500... It needs to be able to do more than what it does now. It needs to shoot everything from across a level, with missiles that never lose their targeting information, along with having more armor and stronger munution firepower... You can't use the price argument in this case. Just because it's expensive does not mean it should be nearly invulnerable.
Aircraftkiller Using Scott's thinking, the Mammoth Tank is $1,500... It needs to be able to do more than what it does now. It needs to shoot everything from across a level, with missiles that never lose their targeting information, along with having more armor and stronger munution firepower... You can't use the price argument in this case. Just because it's expensive does not mean it should be nearly invulnerable. I wasn't just using the price argument, I think the ramjet is vital to maintaining what balance the game actually has. And to the earlier guy, I was referring to how the game is now; not how it will be after some hypothetical changes are made to it. The Mammoth Tank is underpowered. It's a giant bullet magnet. If given the choice between a Mammoth Tank and a Medium Tank, in almost every situation I would choose the medium regardless of price. It has some uses for base sieges when most of the defenses have been destroyed, but it is downright useless without a bunch of support (which never happens because no one waits for the damn thing). I don't have any real suggestion to fix this, but making missles not lose their targeting power actually doesn't sound like a bad start.
Spoony Kinda takes away the point of using anything else, doesn't it? If you think you can't get MVP using nothing but a n00bjet to shoot tanks you're not damaging, I'm guessing you never played in Fastc0nn a few months ago. It's all people did... I manage without shooting vehicles, excluding air :/ Hence the 80 kills
smwScott Spoony Would it blow it up faster than a railgun or a rocket launcher would? I seriously fucking doubt it. With that comment it sounds as if you're viewing Renegade realistically. Realistically this game wouldn't be fun, because yes a rail gun or a rocket launcher would do incredible damage to most vehicles. Your argument against the ramjet being too strong is to complain about lesser weapons not being able to do it as well. No, I am not viewing Renegade in the "realistic" sense, I am questioning why people cannot see what utter bullshit it is how a weapon which is supposed to be anti-infantry will chew up a tank faster than weapons which are supposed to be anti-tank, at the same time without having the disadvantages those weapons have (PIC reload time, Mobius short range, Gunner rocket is dodgable).
Spoony No, I am not viewing Renegade in the "realistic" sense, I am questioning why people cannot see what utter bullshit it is how a weapon which is supposed to be anti-infantry will chew up a tank faster than weapons which are supposed to be anti-tank, at the same time without having the disadvantages those weapons have (PIC reload time, Mobius short range, Gunner rocket is dodgable). Your missing the point, it's not supposed to be anti-infantry only. If WS wanted it to be anti-infantry only then that would have been easy to arrange. As a matter of fact, anti-material rifles similar to that in real life are rarely used for infantry, and mainly for light armor. Also, the weapons you mentioned are more effective at damaging vehicles (even the lightly armored ones, although the Ramjet is the best bet because of the range).
While the ramjet in theory should do some damage to vehicles, it's pretty bullshit the way it is right now vs light armor. And on the realism topic, yeah, a railgun would fucking core a Humvee. It would be owned, period. It'll take you 3 or 4 shots with a high-caliber rifle to achieve vehicular death, and even then it wouldn't be nearly as complete as an RPG or a tank shell or a railgun, yet the ramjet does as much damage as all of these things. Even given Renegade's loose grasp on reality that's still bullshit.
Spoony IceSword7 Have you ever seen the tremors2? I think the gun nut guy is named burt. Anyway remember that gun he used to take out that one walking graboid. It was like super powered and not only did it blow the graboid to pieces but it cut right threw the truck behind it. THATS WHAT GUN SAKURA AND HAVOC ARE USING! You're being unusually coherent here, but I'm betting that gun "the Elephant Gun", they called it, didn't have infinite range, and wouldn't do more damage than a rocket launcher. It wasn't an elephant gun he had then, He had one in Tremors one. It was a 50mm anti tank rifle with custom-ordered copper-headed rounds. And that was a shreaker, not a graboid.
Homey Spoony Kinda takes away the point of using anything else, doesn't it? If you think you can't get MVP using nothing but a n00bjet to shoot tanks you're not damaging, I'm guessing you never played in Fastc0nn a few months ago. It's all people did... I manage without shooting vehicles, excluding air :/ Hence the 80 kills Just as easy to do with a 500 sniper, if you're any good.
I never really use/used the n00bjet, It's so skillless it's the renegade AWP. Gimme a nice tiberium fletchette rifle or Nade launcher =)
flechette rifles take less skill than a 500 sniper rifle.
smwScott Your missing the point, it's not supposed to be anti-infantry only. If WS wanted it to be anti-infantry only then that would have been easy to arrange. I'll concede that I worded my statement badly. smwScott Also, the weapons you mentioned are more effective at damaging vehicles (even the lightly armored ones) Where the FUCK did you get that idea from? Have you ever actually played Renegade?
Doesn't look like he has. Ramjets destroy most light vehicles in six shots or less. Four shots per magazine, high firing rate, do the math...
Spoony Where the FUCK did you get that idea from? Have you ever actually played Renegade? No, I've never played the game before in my life, I just like to hang around message boards and talk about the intricate details of it. You were comparing the Ramjet to the likes of Mendoza/Sydney and Railgun/PIC. These are both more effective at taking out lightly armored vehicles when they're in range. If you mean conventional ones like rocket soldiers then no, characters that cost approximately $400 are not as effective against light armor as the Ramjet is.
smwScott No, I've never played the game before in my life, I just like to hang around message boards and talk about the intricate details of it. I honestly can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. smwScott You were comparing the Ramjet to the likes of Mendoza/Sydney and Railgun/PIC. These are both more effective at taking out lightly armored vehicles when they're in range. No, they aren't...
Spoony smwScott No, I've never played the game before in my life, I just like to hang around message boards and talk about the intricate details of it. I honestly can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. It's pretty obvious.
it depends on how skilled you are at the Rocket Soldier. Light vehicles are fast, so i would say the Rocket soldier is less effective, but if you are able to hit a humvee every time with a rocket soldier, go for it.
Even if you hit every rocket dead on, you won't kill a light vehicle nearly as fast as the ramjet does.
Well if ramjet users are a problem, just get someone who's decent at sniping to get a 500 sniper. If they are any good, they should be able to wipe out most of the ramjet users allowing your team to continue with using light armour vehicles. Teamwork.
That isn't the point... The point is that Ramjets are horribly overpowered. Just because a Ramjet user can be killed by a more highly-skilled player using, say, a 500 sniper, does not solve the overpower problem of the Ramjet.
yes it does spoony, more skilled players beat less skilled players, its the way the game works. If you cant adapt to destroy the Ramjet then the Ramjet will destroy you. Cuz if you you kill a ramjet, then.....hes gone! woohoo! problem solved. if he comes back, do it again. and until he realizes that he cant compete, u keep scoring 90 points offa hs.
Both sides have ramjet, so both sides can 'fight fire with fire'. If they get ramjets, you get them. Or even better, you out skill them with a lesser infantry type. This works on any sniper/infantry character in the game - I know from experience. This is Renegade, where infantry will rule the game if not controlled. It's been like this since beta, and it doesn't need changing (IMHO).
=[DT =gbull=[L]=]yes it does spoony, more skilled players beat less skilled players, its the way the game works. If you cant adapt to destroy the Ramjet then the Ramjet will destroy you. Cuz if you you kill a ramjet, then.....hes gone! woohoo! problem solved. if he comes back, do it again. and until he realizes that he cant compete, u keep scoring 90 points offa hs. Absolutely dead wrong. Here's what's more likely to happen. A semi-skilled player buys a ramjet, gets lots of kills by bodyshotting (and thinks he's a 1337 sniper for doing so), gets ridiculous amounts of points by shooting tanks from the other end of the map, then gets headshotted by someone who is actually good at the game using a 500 sniper. From the n00bjetter's point of view, that's a good trade for his life. Lots of easy kills, lots of easy points, zero skill used. So he'll keep doing it.
Spoony =[DT =gbull=[L]=]yes it does spoony, more skilled players beat less skilled players, its the way the game works. If you cant adapt to destroy the Ramjet then the Ramjet will destroy you. Cuz if you you kill a ramjet, then.....hes gone! woohoo! problem solved. if he comes back, do it again. and until he realizes that he cant compete, u keep scoring 90 points offa hs. Absolutely dead wrong. Here's what's more likely to happen. A semi-skilled player buys a ramjet, gets lots of kills by bodyshotting (and thinks he's a 1337 sniper for doing so), gets ridiculous amounts of points by shooting tanks from the other end of the map, then gets headshotted by someone who is actually good at the game using a 500 sniper. From the n00bjetter's point of view, that's a good trade for his life. Lots of easy kills, lots of easy points, zero skill used. So he'll keep doing it. Then the 500 sniper will kill him again and again till the person can't buy a ramjet, so he has to be a normal soldier. Where he will get HS by that 500 sniper everytime he walks out of base.
We're assuming no one else is trying to kill this 500 sniper? In reality there are gonna be other n00bjetters on the enemy, so he will have a withering hail of bodyshots to face. APCs coming after him. Who knows, there might also be a decent sniper on the opposition as well. You are completely missing the point. The point is, and always has been, that the fact you can kill a Havoc with one shot still means they are horribly overpowered.
Then the 500 sniper will kill him again and again till the person can't buy a ramjet, so he has to be a normal soldier. Where he will get HS by that 500 sniper everytime he walks out of base. [/quote] Long time no see ADM. Here's something to chew on. What's that 500 credit sniper gonna do about to 2-3 other n00bjets that are present and shooting at him? N00bjets almost always travel in packs. The n00bjet is so over powered it makes all the n00bs want to use it for easy points/kills. There are only a handfull of skilled players who can userp a n00bjetter with any other character class. You can count on one hand the number of pilots who can do it. As I stated in a previous post, the n00bjet was NOT the intended anti air and anti artillery weapon for the game. Because of all the n00b whiners who wanted the game finished and kept bitching to EA about it, Westwood was never able to complete the setup for the rockets which should have been the anti air/ anti artillery weapon.
i myself have taken a pack of n00bjets today(4). And you assume that I am the ONLY sniper trying to kill them as well, i will be shot at by more snipers probably, but so will they. It balances out, and if it doesnt balance out, its your own fault. Like I said before, a skilled sniper beats an unskilled sniper 85% of the time. I say 85% because the n00b might get lucky and score a hs or two body shots. But i can live with that cuz of the points you get for a Havoc hs and the money it takes them in order to obtain the ramjet make it so its fair. I am not speaking for myself, i almost never use a ramjet, just because i suck with them. The fire rate for the 500 is just soo much better than the 1000(another reason why it balances out in sniper/sniper warfare).
OK. One last time. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE DAMAGE AGAINST INFANTRY
I REALISE THIS BUT THIS IS HOW YOU COUNTER SNIPERS. U ARENT LISTENING, U CANT JUST USE TANKS ALL THE TIME AND THINK YOU ARE GOING TO WIN, STRATEGY IS NEEDED. I USE TANKS AS MUCH AS THE NEXT PERSON, BUT CERTAIN SITUATIONS CALL FOR INFANTRY SUPPORT. GEEZ TY SPOONY YOU BROKE MY CAPS LOCK.
I can't help but notice you completely fail to address the actual point.
Ramjetters can kill most infantry with one shot with no real skill needed.
If there are more ramjet users then you simply either: - Get a tank to occupy the snipers while you take them off from behind. - Ask someone else to help to snipe, thus taking the workload off. There are many tactics, still the more snipers there are - the more points there are up for offer. If your team has no snipers or any other methods of countering these ramjet users, then you deserve to lose. Every game I play in AOW, my team has no problems with snipers, because I take the role of sniping even though I'd rather be in a tank. Teamwork and strategy, rather than sitting on a hill in a tank shooting the power plant. So if these so called n00bs go for easy kills and points with ramjet, then so does your team. Except you do it BETTER.
Are you suggesting the majority of a team should be "sniping"? Realisitically it should be about 10%, shouldn't it?
There is no set percentage, you just fight fire with fire. Do whatever is needed to counteract the opponents strategy, and have a counter ready for that counter. Mind games I tell ya.
You can't counter something that's uncounterable by anything but the same type of unit. You know why RTS games like Command & Conquer are balanced? Because every unit has a counter. You should never have to send the same unit after another identical unit to kill it as YOUR ONLY EFFECTIVE SOLUTION. For example: Rocket Soldiers destroy tanks. Tanks can run over Rocket Soldiers but this isn't easy. Rocket Soldiers are extremely susceptible to Rifle Soldier fire, or any kind of AP fire. Get how that's balanced? The Rocket Soldier is good against one thing, but not everything. The Ramjet is good at EVERYTHING! Same with the stupid 500 credit sniper too.
ADM you just fight fire with fire. Do whatever is needed to counteract the opponents strategy, and have a counter ready for that counter. Mind games I tell ya. So what you're basically saying is, if everyone on the opposition is using ridiculously overpowered weaponry to compensate for their lack of skill and get disproportionate amounts of points for what they're actually doing, I should do the same.
Ramjet does have a hefty cost for usage, all it takes is someone to kill you and you've gone down a 1000. You could rush a base and destroy a building before the other side even starts buying ramjets. Skill and good tactics are the counter to ramjets. Alot of things appear to have no counter on the outside. Just because it doesn't have an immediate counter cycle as most things 'appear' to have, it doesn't mean a counter doesn't exist. BTW would you consider stealth as a counter to sniping? My main point is that I know ramjet are slightly overpowered as stated earlier - but that is what Renegade is known for now. Most people have adjusted to this now, changing it will only make things worse. (IMO)
Spoony ADM you just fight fire with fire. Do whatever is needed to counteract the opponents strategy, and have a counter ready for that counter. Mind games I tell ya. So what you're basically saying is, if everyone on the opposition is using ridiculously overpowered weaponry to compensate for their lack of skill and get disproportionate amounts of points for what they're actually doing, I should do the same. That's one way to look at it. There's nothing disproportionate about it though. If it's been in a game for 3 years without being talked about or been dealt with till now then it's not really disproportionate.
I've always said I think the Ramjet should damage vehicles, but much less than it does now, with a lot less points. It should continue to do the same damage to infantry. The 500 cred sniper rifle should NOT damage vehicles AT ALL...come on its basically a deer rifle it shouldnt be able to take out a mrls/mobart from across the map. Anyone disagree with this?
ADM If your team has no snipers or any other methods of countering these ramjet users, then you deserve to lose. Yep, ive tried saying this many time already...they just dont get it tho. Aircraftkiller You can't counter something that's uncounterable by anything but the same type of unit Ramjet < Tiberium Flechette Gun Ramjet < Laser Chaingunner Ramjet < Stealth Black Hand Ramjet < Armored Personnel Carrier Ramjet < Medium/Light Tank Ramjet < Better Sniper No Levels are completely wide open, so dont tell me there is no way to sneak up on snipers because I do it, and have it done to me on a daily basis. If you are good at any of the weapons above, you should have no problems. Ramjets get 8 points per shot they hit on a Mammy i believe (correct me if im wrong). but 8 points for 32 shots they carry is only 256 points. Now in order to rattle off 32 shots with a ramjet takes a lot of time and it takes alot of time getting back to base to refill after you do this. And if your a mammy pounding a WF while a sniper is shooting you, your gonna get ALOT more points.
Blazer I've always said I think the Ramjet should damage vehicles, but much less than it does now, with a lot less points. It should continue to do the same damage to infantry. The 500 cred sniper rifle should NOT damage vehicles AT ALL...come on its basically a deer rifle it shouldnt be able to take out a mrls/mobart from across the map. Anyone disagree with this? It depends how much damage you think the Ramjet should do. If you're thinking around the level of damage to light armour that the regular sniper rifle does currently, then I would have to disagree. On most maps infantry have the ability to fire out from inside cover that can't be reached by vehicles. If you're in a Buggy on City Flying, you have almost zero chance of winning a fight against a skilled Deadeye firing from the tunnels. He can move in and out of cover, hitting you instantly from long range until he's chipped away all of your health, and the only thing you can do is withdraw from the field. You can't fight back because if the sniper hides in the tunnels, you can't reach him with your vehicle, so you can't damage him. The long range and the instant hitting properties of the sniper rifles are just too much in conjunction with the ability to make yourself impervious to harm when required. It doesn't matter how much you reduce the damage vs. vehicles unless you make it almost negligible, because they can keep firing at you with no fear of retaliation. All that damage they're inflicting builds up over time and it's not like snipers are going to be the only enemy shooting at a light armoured vehicle. Against infantry it's more balanced because they can follow you into cover and engage you at close quarters.
=[DT =gbull=[L]=] Ramjet < Tiberium Flechette Gun Ramjet < Laser Chaingunner Ramjet < Stealth Black Hand Ramjet < Armored Personnel Carrier Ramjet < Medium/Light Tank Ramjet < Better Sniper All of those get wasted except the med and apc, and the sniper doesn't count. Look, the bottom line is, fuck that. Some people want to actually enjoy their game instead of losing their vehicle in 10 seconds to instant hitting, almost impossible to counter n00b cannons. Of course you would say I should send an SBH or apc or whatever over there to counter the sniper. What then? I go back to using what I want to use, and out comes another n00b cannon. It's like saying if there's a pesky fly in your house and the only way to kill it is to crush it, you should keep throwing fly repellant at it to temporarily weaken it. Then it keeps coming back and all you want to do is relax and watch some tv. Let's not forget how many people use them once you've no bar/hon...it's seriously impossible to have a GG once that happens, since you get wasted over and over as you leave buildings. Why bother dodging? you'll die anyway. At least you stand a chance w/a rifle soldier against any other character. The bottom line is that their damage values need toned down or they need to be removed completely along with quite a few other changes to compensate. And nobody has refuted falconxl's point about renegade meant to having seek-out rockets instead of ramjet rifles.
The ramjet does do a disproportionate amount of damage to arty units. OT: Isn't it ironic that a topic entitiled - "The final word" has spawned a four page debate
[quote="flyingfox"] =[DT =gbull=[L]=] And nobody has refuted falconxl's point about renegade meant to having seek-out rockets instead of ramjet rifles. Yes but just bcause something was 'meant' to happen, that doesn't change the fact that Renegade has been this way for 3 years. I don't see why all of a sudden it's a major considering that ramjet users have been doing what they do now since day one. I remember this issue back in beta as someone said it could be a possible problem. Delphi commented that this issue was fine and that the chemistry of the game made it very possible to counter ramjet. Back then everyone replied with their own counters and everyone was fine with it all.
ADM I bitched once I saw the damage done durring the air beta as did others. But there were more n00bjetters saying it was fine than there were us multiskilled players complaining.
It might just be me, I only play on the pits, but I actually don't see many people pointwhoring with snipers. The only time they really get active is on maps like Walls Flying, City Flying, or Field. On the 2 flying maps, the game more oftenly results in a win bye base destruction, so who cares about snipers. And on Field the tanks are the most important in the field. And the snipers are more active in the tunnels. But since they actually also give a nice set of points back, when you kill them they aren't really a problem in the tunnels. Just use infantry that give away less points.
um, ADM, i didnt write that dude, it was AirCraftKiller. And FlyingFox, they dont get "Wasted" by the Ramjet. Have you ever tried hs him?
I say leave them the way they are. Helis would be ultra powerful without them. And the thing is, even if we had seeking rockets, would they kill a heli in one shot like real life? Cause you ppl would b!tch about that too. There are PLENTY of ways to counter snipers. APCs, Tanks, other snipers, shotguns...etc... If you can't defend your bar/hon, you deserve the crippling effect of it's absence, just like any other building. That's the whole freaking point of the game, to destroy the enemy while defending your base. So don't complain about losing the hand and getting owned by havocs, you deserve the torture cause you lost the hand. The light armor vehicles are light armor for a reason, they each serve specific purposes. A hummer shouldn't be as hard to kill as an apc, it's meant for recon, not for transport, etc...
COMMAND & CONQUER IS NOT BASED ON REALITY, ENOUGH WITH THE REAL LIFE ARGUMENT, THIS GAME IS NOT REAL LIFE; WERE IT REAL LIFE TANKS WOULD NOT HAVE TRAIN WHEELS FOR WHEELS AND WOULD NOT TAKE 10+ HITS FROM A 105MM CANNON TO BE DESTROYED. INFANTRY WOULD NOT TAKE MULTIPLE HEADSHOTS TO KILL. ROCKETS WOULD FLY MUCH FASTER. BULLETS WOULD NOT DAMAGE TANKS. REALISM ARGUMENTS DO NOT WORK HERE. GAMEPLAY BALANCE IS NOT AND WAS NOT DICTATED BY REALISM OR REAL LIFE.
Actually, sometimes people can survive being shot in the head.
yes glyde, but they couldnt keep fighting afterwards.... :rolleyes:
Aircraftkiller The Ramjet is good at EVERYTHING! Same with the stupid 500 credit sniper too. So is Mobius. Frankly, what you and everyone else seem to be whining about with these sniper's is that they can in fact... shoot long distances. We're all agreed that the points given per sniper bullet are way to high. So that should be changed for the sake of balance. However, when it comes to the damage the Ramjet and the basic sniper rifle do against vehicles, all of you use your brains and stop thinking on an all-or-none basis. What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Renegade is based off of (not a replica, as far as I know) of an RTS (real time strategy game) called Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn. ADM is absolutely right. Stop whining about why there is a big bad sniper owning you and select a unit or a vehicle that can deal with it. If you don't have a barracks, Hand of Nod, war factory, or airstrip because your team sucks the wang chung, your arguements are all but invalid. Believe it or not, the sniper's damage and capabilities are easily matched by many units. What people seem to forget is that regardless of how powerful the sniper is, he still has to HIT you in order to do damage. In which time, you can quite easily unload as many rounds necessary from one of the semi/automatic weapons necessary to take him out. But even more importantly, if there are an abunance of snipers on the field, and you still have all your buildings, get a damn tank and ignore them. It is the faulty strategy on the sniper's team that will result in the ownage of their base by YOUR tanks. If you don't have the necessary buildings, you've already fucked up and those snipers have every right to kick your ass. What I find entertaining is how much you nay-sayers are trying to balance the game to be exactly like the original Command and Conquer. All the while forgetting that just about everything you're striving for would result in a game far more unbalanced then you claim it to already be. Last time I checked, TD starred Orcas which didn't have machine guns. That's fine. But then again, the only infantry that could hit it were rocket soldiers, certainly not any vehicles that I can recall off hand. So what does that mean? When you lose the Hand of Nod, you lose your ability to destory Orcas? Or what about APCs? Couldn't a set of 5 or so GDI or Nod soldiers wipe out an APC in under 30 seconds? Doesn't that kind of firepower render base defences all but obsolete? The list goes on and on. Stop whining about the damage dealt by the Ramjets because they don't correspond with the original Command and Conquer (because, after all, there were no Ramjets in TD, or Repair guns, or specialized characters outside the commando, or PICs, or Railguns, or Stealth Blackhands, etc) and deal with the problem strategically. The game has lasted for an approximate time of 3 years on these settings, and it has been fine.
Javaxcx Aircraftkiller The Ramjet is good at EVERYTHING! Same with the stupid 500 credit sniper too. So is Mobius. Frankly, what you and everyone else seem to be whining about with these sniper's is that they can in fact... shoot long distances. We're all agreed that the points given per sniper bullet are way to high. So that should be changed for the sake of balance. However, when it comes to the damage the Ramjet and the basic sniper rifle do against vehicles, all of you use your brains and stop thinking on an all-or-none basis. What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Renegade is based off of (not a replica, as far as I know) of an RTS (real time strategy game) called Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn. ADM is absolutely right. Stop whining about why there is a big bad sniper owning you and select a unit or a vehicle that can deal with it. If you don't have a barracks, Hand of Nod, war factory, or airstrip because your team sucks the wang chung, your arguements are all but invalid. Believe it or not, the sniper's damage and capabilities are easily matched by many units. What people seem to forget is that regardless of how powerful the sniper is, he still has to HIT you in order to do damage. In which time, you can quite easily unload as many rounds necessary from one of the semi/automatic weapons necessary to take him out. But even more importantly, if there are an abunance of snipers on the field, and you still have all your buildings, get a damn tank and ignore them. It is the faulty strategy on the sniper's team that will result in the ownage of their base by YOUR tanks. If you don't have the necessary buildings, you've already fucked up and those snipers have every right to kick your ass. What I find entertaining is how much you nay-sayers are trying to balance the game to be exactly like the original Command and Conquer. All the while forgetting that just about everything you're striving for would result in a game far more unbalanced then you claim it to already be. Last time I checked, TD starred Orcas which didn't have machine guns. That's fine. But then again, the only infantry that could hit it were rocket soldiers, certainly not any vehicles that I can recall off hand. So what does that mean? When you lose the Hand of Nod, you lose your ability to destory Orcas? Or what about APCs? Couldn't a set of 5 or so GDI or Nod soldiers wipe out an APC in under 30 seconds? Doesn't that kind of firepower render base defences all but obsolete? The list goes on and on. Stop whining about the damage dealt by the Ramjets because they don't correspond with the original Command and Conquer (because, after all, there were no Ramjets in TD, or Repair guns, or specialized characters outside the commando, or PICs, or Railguns, or Stealth Blackhands, etc) and deal with the problem strategically. The game has lasted for an approximate time of 3 years on these settings, and it has been fine. Great sense Java, you shot down both arguements and put forward your own argument, with just one post. OT: any idea when fudonline will be back up I need to re download arnie's stirngs after installing CP1
Not a clue. I'm not sure why it's down, actually.
Quote: So is Mobius. No, he's not. Mobius is only good at close range and takes more time to destroy a Buggy or Hum-vee than a n00b cannon does. Quote: Frankly, what you and everyone else seem to be whining about with these sniper's is that they can in fact... shoot long distances. We're all agreed that the points given per sniper bullet are way to high. So that should be changed for the sake of balance. However, when it comes to the damage the Ramjet and the basic sniper rifle do against vehicles, all of you use your brains and stop thinking on an all-or-none basis. No one has a problem with them shooting long distance. That's the entire point of a sniper rifle. The n00b cannon does not need to damage vehicles anywhere near as much as it does now. Maybe 5% of its current vehicle damage is acceptable, but not what it is immediately. Quote: What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Renegade is based off of (not a replica, as far as I know) of an RTS (real time strategy game) called Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn. I've been following Renegade since 1998. It was pitched then and was pitched in 2002 as being C&C95 in first person. Quote: Stop whining about why there is a big bad sniper owning you and select a unit or a vehicle that can deal with it. Both "snipers" destroy all of these units: MRLS Artillery Hum-vee Buggy Orca Apache Transport Helicopter All infantry What does that leave undamaged, but getting horrible points off? APC Mammoth Tank Medium Tank Light Tank Stealth Tank (which literally gives off like 23 points a shot) Oh yes. Lets get those units so they can shoot my Light Tank for 10 points a shot. By the time I drive across the bridge on City Flying, assuming I haven't been shot up already, they can have 100+ points from just shooting at my tank. By the time I destroy one, I made no point profit. I gave the enemy more points by just getting a vehicle than I did killing the soldier that did the damage to my vehicle. Quote: What people seem to forget is that regardless of how powerful the sniper is, he still has to HIT you in order to do damage. In which time, you can quite easily unload as many rounds necessary from one of the semi/automatic weapons necessary to take him out. OH LIKE IT'S THAT HARD TO HIT SOMEONE WITH A WEAPON THAT HAS FOUR SHOTS PER MAGAZINE AND HAS NO RECOIL, AND FLICKERS SIDE TO SIDE WHILE SCOPED TO MAKE IT EVEN HARDER TO TARGET THE ATTACKER. Quote: But even more importantly, if there are an abunance of snipers on the field, and you still have all your buildings, get a damn tank and ignore them. By the time they finish taking my armor off my tank with the n00b cannons, I'll have probably 200 points from attacking a building. They'll have more. It's useless to get a tank, you lose anyways. Quote: Last time I checked, TD starred Orcas which didn't have machine guns. That's fine. But then again, the only infantry that could hit it were rocket soldiers, certainly not any vehicles that I can recall off hand. The reason why tanks couldn't aim at aircraft was that they moved so fast, which makes it futile for them to attempt firing with unguided tank shells. Obviously this can be done in first person but takes a lot of luck or skill to pull off. Orcas don't need a machine gun. Apaches don't need missiles. Quote: Stop whining about the damage dealt by the Ramjets because they don't correspond with the original Command and Conque As I said earlier this game was pitched as being C&C95 in first person. The Commando is meant to be Havoc. Havoc's gun is supposed to be useful against infantry only. The game has not been fine. People don't stop playing games because they're fun. They stop playing them, like this one, because it sucks.