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C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
I realize this is the second rant about this in as many months. But fix the damn ramjet. I just left a game where 10 ramjets had set up a crossfire on the nod base. We had lost the Hand and were down to basic infantry. I couldn't walk 6 feet out the door to defend without being cut down. I died 15 times in as many seconds. I know how to fix it too. Place a limit to the number of snipers and ramjets per team that can be purchased, similar to the way a team is limited to 8 vehicles. 5 of each should be more than enough to meet a teams sniper needs. I also request that you fix the vehicle damage. No sniper should be able to kill a vehicle under any circumstances, there should be a penalty for being so specialized.
I'd rather just have the Ramjet completely removed or atleast have it one shot per clip.
but what about all the sniping servers? or are u talking about the 6 new maps specifically. removing the ramjet will lower the number of renegade players believe me.
If they play exclusively to get their jollies killing basic infantry and watching the complaints scroll by, we're well rid of them.
hey, your teams fault for letting the Hand go. Limiting the number of snipers in a game would be so boring to people who are 1337 snipers and are then forced to use characters that suck (otherwise known as characters other than 500, 1000 snipers, pics/raveshaw, and techies/hotties)
I don't know...I find it more fun to engage in large battles with basic riflemen.
Basicly all out war means "no rules" so this is all allowed. In a real battle your not going to set rules like "no snipers" your going to do whatever it takes to kill these guys. Think outside of the box, instead of removing things, counter them! Think about 3-4 of your team mates showering the snipers with rifle fire to help cover a guy to get him out and sneak up behind them or something.. as their attention gets drawn to the guy thats escaped, you can get out yourself and help take them out
Madtone Basicly all out war means "no rules" so this is all allowed. In a real battle your not going to set rules like "no snipers" your going to do whatever it takes to kill these guys. Yes, but this is a game. I wan't to play to have fun, but i can't get that if i die a second after i leave a structure or enter a light armoured vehicle. :rolleyes:
And then they kill you in one shot because a n00b cannon round kills instantly with basic infantry in any body location.
1337 snipers dont need Havocs or Sakuras...but are devestating when they do use them.
CareBear Mod wanted. Carebear's will be equipped with water pistols that do 1 damage point to anything except fire because fire is scary. Special attack will be a beam of "purdy" colors that spawn little cute bunnies dancing and singing all around the target. All the tears will turn to smiles and everyone will be happy. Seriously... quit crying.
Madtone, while that may be a good strategy in theory, you have to think about the reality of it. What if it's a 10 v 10 game and there are two snipers. One skilled sniper with the $500 sniper, and a n00bjetter. You're suggesting that we send 6-8 players to shower the snipers with gunfire, but then that leaves 2-4 players against 8, but wait, you have a sniper of your own so now you have pretty much yourself to rely on to go up against 8. Now, if there was no n00bjet, that person probably wouldn't snipe because he couldn't snipe worth shit or he does try his luck with a $500 sniper, but becomes a hell of a lot less dangerous, and possibly even obsolte. Like Naamloos said, this isn't a real battle, and if it were a real battle, there would be no n00bjetter because there is no rifle round that can kill a person instantly from a shot to the foot.
liberator Quote: I also request that you fix the vehicle damage. No sniper should be able to kill a vehicle under any circumstances, there should be a penalty for being so specialized. I disagree. Lets model our game Ramjet to the S2 AM Ramjet - This rifle is a gas-operated magazine-fed weapon. It comes also with a smart-link scope with a 2x and 10x magnification. As an added bonus, the scope comes with a Nightvision capability--making for one of the best, top of the line quality, precision sniper weapons. Its huge 14.5 mm fin-stabilized round makes for excellent range and which can drill through many surfaces including armored targets. Weight: 13 lbs. Cartridge: 14.5mm armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot rounds. Effective Range: 5000 feet. Rate of Fire: Single Shot only. Payload: 4 rounds. Though I do sympathize with you about being at the complete mercy of all the snipers in your game, but as you can see the Ramjet can take out vehicles and should be able too in Renegade. I think it's fair that they take out choppers, artillery and the smaller vehicles like the buggy and Hmmwv. I guess if you have enough $$ for an APC, buy one and go run all the snipers down.....LOL That is if you don't get sniped trying to get to your APC It can appear that this is an overpowering weapon, that's because it is. It's a one shot, one kill rifle. No matter where this 14.5mm round hits you on the human body, you will die. I'm sure had you been GDI you'd have been one of those snipers.....LOL
pulse removing the ramjet will lower the number of renegade players believe me. It will lower the number of solo b00ns more like.
Ripintou Though I do sympathize with you about being at the complete mercy of all the snipers in your game, but as you can see the Ramjet can take out vehicles and should be able too in Renegade. I think it's fair that they take out choppers, artillery and the smaller vehicles like the buggy and Hmmwv. I would believe this except for the fact that it would still do much less damage against an armored vehicle I guess if you have enough $$ for an APC, buy one and go run all the snipers down.....LOL That is if you don't get sniped trying to get to your APC You're suggested counters don't work very well, any sniper confident enough in his abilities to stand in plain sight 100 yards from the enemy base isn't going to have a lot of problem whacking 4-5 basic infantry before they even get into range to try and damage him. It can appear that this is an overpowering weapon, that's because it is. It's a one shot, one kill rifle. No matter where this 14.5mm round hits you on the human body, you will die. Even the foot?:rolleyes: I'm sure had you been GDI you'd have been one of those snipers.... No I wouldn't have been, because 1) I see it as decidedly unfair 2) I can't snipe with a RamJet and only moderatly well with the Standard; I prefer automatic weapons like the shard launcher or volt rifle and energy weapons like the PIC and Rail Gun
only bad snipers think snipers should be removed.
We're not talking abour removing snipers, we're talking about changing or removing the n00bjet.
I wish people would stop whining. When both teams have fully functional bases, the game is very balanced. Ramjets are useful for countering many types of units, but they can be easily killed if you are skilled enough. I realize that you were in a hopeless situation. Tough shit, Renegade is a flawed game. The game would be significantly worse if the ramjet was removed, and this is coming from someone who rarely even bothers sniping let alone using the ramjet.
You're right, Renegade is a flawed game, so maybe that's why we want to fix it? Hmm...an idea! Also, it's hard to kill a n00bjetter when they aren't your main focus. Not to mention when you're in a Humvee trying to go to the other base and you're being hit by a n00bjetter. That kind of defeats the fucking purpose of being in a vehicle. It's a flaw that can be fixed easily, and it should be.
the damage could be reduced a touch when it comes to the humvee/buggys compare the damage that the volt gun/PIC guns do to a humvee/buggy there both 1000$ characters.. the PIC gun should be the only heavey damage gun cause the reload takes to so long damage vs time of reload.. noobjets should be like a 2 shot gun then reload
GeTSm0keD compare the damage that the volt gun/PIC guns do to a humvee/buggy That's a different story...they're not sniper characters. They're not meant for just anti-infantry like a normal sniper rifle is.
pulse but what about all the sniping servers? Sniper servers should be for snipers only, not Ramjets. 500 snipers are better for sniping, if you actually know how to play the game.
Ramjets are only unfair in how much you can get with them at shooting vehicles. Points need to be awarded according to the damage inflicted. You may as well complain about APC whores who just run people over when the opposing team is left with basic infantry. :rolleyes: I hate them too, but I don't want the APC removed.
I think the ramjet is fine. So what it makes driving a hummer or heli harder, buy an apc, take out the hand/bar, fly your heli as much as you damn well please. And besides that, you could just get better at flying/driving. I've seen plenty of ppl in helis that are good take on multiple sak/havoc and win. Helis and hummers are purposefully week because they have other strengths, namely speed and manuverability. In addition, no one seems to complain about the fact that a shotgunner can take down an MRL/MobArt with ammo to spare! That seems more "unrealistic" and "unbalanced" than a sniper rifle designed to pierce armor. There's plenty of ways to counter each and every strategy in Renegade, bottom line is, if you're getting mowed down by snipers, ramjet or non, GET BETTER AT DODGING/SNIPING. It's not that hard.
Hulkcore In addition, no one seems to complain about the fact that a shotgunner can take down an MRL/MobArt with ammo to spare! That seems more "unrealistic" and "unbalanced" than a sniper rifle designed to pierce armor. How's it unrealistic and unbalanced? You do realize that shotguns spray buck shots, right? Not to mention you have to be extremely close to the MRLS/Artillery to even hit it. If you can get that close and not get ran over, then you deserve to take it out.
Hulkcore In addition, no one seems to complain about the fact that a shotgunner can take down an MRL/MobArt with ammo to spare! That seems more "unrealistic" and "unbalanced" than a sniper rifle designed to pierce armor. The difference is that a shotgunner has to get close enough to shoot the Arty, unlike the n00bjet which can sit from WAY out of range of EVERYTHING else except artillery which dies in seconds and is too inacurate to stop a n00bjet without deploying at least 2. There's plenty of ways to counter each and every strategy in Renegade, bottom line is, if you're getting mowed down by snipers, ramjet or non, GET BETTER AT DODGING/SNIPING. It's not that hard. says the guy on the other side of the sniper rifle. I will agree that standard snipers are dodgeable, but n00bjets do 200 damage no matter where they hit you and they can be fired in rapid succession.
YSLMuffins You may as well complain about APC whores who just run people over when the opposing team is left with basic infantry. :rolleyes: I hate them too, but I don't want the APC removed. Well said smwScott I wish people would stop whining. I realize that you were in a hopeless situation. Tough shit. The game would be significantly worse if the ramjet was removed So true This will go nowhere, we may as well argue the stealth capability again :rolleyes: It's WAR people! So you get Own3d every once in a while, it just means that their team was better than yours, deal with it! Many times I've killed a Havoc/Sakura with a pistol, as have many others. Being down to basic infantry doesn't mean you have to give up the fight. *Accept the loss. *Move on. *Enjoy the game. Out!
The APC is fine except for the way it fires. In C&C it could only fire ahead of itself in a 45 degree arc. Why? Because the APC's M60 cannot swivel around completely... M113 APCs have an arc of fire that can only be 45 degrees in front as the gun is directly in front of the gunner's hatch, and it's not on a swivel mount. It can only turn in that view arc, because the gunner cannot pull the gun around to fire backwards. If you change the round capacity from 100 to 50 rounds and give it a view arc for firing, it would work fine. Additionally, making Rifle Soldier weaponry damage vehicles about 200% better ala Renegade Alert would give them more function. Allowing them to damage stuctures would make them useful, and removing the stupid charge of C4 would be even better. C4 explosives are not issued to units in reality unless they have demolition work to do. There's a lot of easy ways to make this game more fun, but if you choose to hold on to a game that makes no sense and is not Command & Conquer, go for it. I can't wait to get RA working on Source, then you'll see what Renegade really was supposed to be like. Not this cripple of a game that it is right now.
j_ball430 Hulkcore In addition, no one seems to complain about the fact that a shotgunner can take down an MRL/MobArt with ammo to spare! That seems more "unrealistic" and "unbalanced" than a sniper rifle designed to pierce armor. How's it unrealistic and unbalanced? You do realize that shotguns spray buck shots, right? Not to mention you have to be extremely close to the MRLS/Artillery to even hit it. If you can get that close and not get ran over, then you deserve to take it out. It's unrealistic because a shotgun vs. an armored vehicle would not blow the damned thing up in 20 shells. And besides, I don't think that there are really any serious balance issues in Renegade. I don't think the people that made the game had intense realism in mind. I think they were going for what works and what is fun. And since we're all playing the game that's getting close to 3 years old, I would say they did a damn fine job. Bottom line, I've been on both ends of the sniper rifle many many times, I've had the crap beat out of me, and I've done my fair share of killing, but I've never been in a situation where I was gonna whine that the other team was better than me. If you can't get a shotgunner close enough to a sak/havoc or an mrl for that matter, tough cookies, practice more, get better, grow up.
Hulkcore grow up. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and that little comment just proved it.
Quote: don't think that there are really any serious balance issues in Renegade Haha. Ever considered stand up comedian work? Quote: If you can't get a shotgunner close enough to a sak/havoc or an mrl for that matter, tough cookies, practice more, get better, grow up. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/k.livingston/puppet.jpg
Me telling you to grow up prooves absolutely nothing other than the fact that I think it's stupid to whine about how some sniper kicked your ass. It's a game and if you aren't good at it, that's not the games fault. And yes, I don't think there are any SERIOUS balance issues in Renegade. I think that what the dev team did was incredibly ambitious and I think that they did a very good job of balancing multiple types of infantry, vehicles, and drestructable buildings into a game that is incredibly fun to play. I would rather have fun that realism. And your picture niether makes sense nor proves anything. The sakura was trying to kill you? You're on the same team. Even if it was a Havoc, I've been in that situation many times, on both sides of the rifle and have both killed the sniper and have been killed. So I can't explain why you can't. Practice harder. Another thing about helis, without pic/rave/sak/havoc nothing can touch them other than other helis. So the ramjet balances the helis because without it, they would be nearly unstoppable. The pic/rave doesn't have the range that the ramjet does, therefore helis would be incredibly tough to kill.
It was a paint cut & paste, and the point was: why should you have to try a thousand times harder than the sniper and still die? what kind of a sniper lets himself be seen anyways.....renegade doesn't make sense.
Quote: It's WAR people! So you get Own3d every once in a while, it just means that their team was better than yours, deal with it! you win some you lose some! hah
Hulkcore you don't know shit. You're the same kind of person who thinks the AWP in CS is balanced. Ramjets can kill you from anywhere you can be seen. They reach the maximum view distance and easily tear apart light vehicles, infantry, and even damage structures with their charge of C4 explosives. In C&C, which this obviously is not anymore, commando units such as the "ramjet snipers" in Renegade could barely damage vehicles. They killed infantry and that was their entire purpose, along with structure demolition. Command & Conquer was balanced. Renegade is not. One unit should not be so multipurpose as to totally negate the need for several units. You would say it's balanced to have a button that only Havoc\Sakura can press that instantly kills the enemy team, if it were placed inside the Barracks\Hand of Nod. You would argue that you'd need more skill in order to get to their base and prevent them from pressing the button that effectively kills your entire team over and over until they decide to stop doing it. It doesn't take skill. Neither does using a n00b cannon Havoc\Sakura. I went into Renegade with it the past two days and easily destroyed everything without a problem, and got over 170 kills on a particular server over the course of five or six games before being banned for "known cheater," even though RenGuard was running. n00b cannons are not balanced. Renegade is not balanced. It may be whining, but that's irrelevant, I'd rather whine than have idiots like you dictate how the game is played when you know nothing about what makes a game Command & Conquer.
You are a known cheater... you admited it in a thread on these forums... Aside from that, you're an ass.. and asses aren't allowed to play on our server.. Read the rules if you don't believe me.
AirCraftKiller I can't wait to get RA working on Source, then you'll see what Renegade really was supposed to be like. Not this cripple of a game that it is right now. you seem pretty sure of yourself. Dont <spellcheck>disapoint</spellcheck> now.
Quote: These images are from the successful prototype for Renegade2. I designed and built the level to prove a concept - that the W3D engine could handle a larger amount of polygons than was previously attempted - Renegade 1 was designed around an out dated minimum spec. I wanted to show that by using well designed low poly geometry and limited textures, you could still get a richly detailed environment. In the final demo, the polys were still reduced even further with no real loss of detail. These models are the first in a series of tests - built and rendered in Lightwave. The finals were exported into Max with UVs and placed into the W3D engine. The level was finally based around a scavenger culture that eventually turns into the organization known to Command and Conquer fans as Nod. Also - I personally believe that where possible, a real time game should include geometry that enhances the experience of moving through a believable environment - a virtual playground so to speak. You can view an ingame animation in "Motion Graphics" and see screen shots in "GameArt". Renegade 2 was made on the W3D engine. SHUT YOUR TRAP NOW.
=[DT =gbull=[L]=] AirCraftKiller I can't wait to get RA working on Source, then you'll see what Renegade really was supposed to be like. Not this cripple of a game that it is right now. you seem pretty sure of yourself. Dont <spellcheck>disapoint</spellcheck> now. You know, the best part about this comment is how it is a complete reversal of history.. I don't know how many times over the last 2 years that I've heard Ack chastise someone for saying another engine is better than Renegade's. The reason Renegade sucks has always been "they didn't have time to tweak the engine correctly" and "you can't even comprehend what this engine is capable of".. Now they have to move to Source to show you what Renegade was supposed to be like? ROFL.. I guess Dante finally opened their eyes to what he saw almost a year ago..
The whole point of the game is that Havoc is supposed to be the commando from the Original C&C. Well, give him a regular sniper rifle and the C4 amount that Hotties get. This would make him the Commando from the Original C&C, he could kill people from long-range, but not vehicles, and he could enter buildings with a resonable chance of killing them, just like the C&C commando.
I will have to check (ive got the original manual and other documentation here somewhere) but i dont recall the commando in the original c&c haveing a sniper rifle as his wepon to start with.
msgtpain You are a known cheater... you admited it in a thread on these forums... Aside from that, you're an ass.. and asses aren't allowed to play on our server.. Read the rules if you don't believe me. That's your excuse for wanting to ban me for your little vendetta. If you're playing the "lets remove asses" card, you need to remove most of your players, especially yourself. There are not many people who constantly be an ass and preach about not being an ass, but you sir are one of them. Quote: You know, the best part about this comment is how it is a complete reversal of history.. I don't know how many times over the last 2 years that I've heard Ack chastise someone for saying another engine is better than Renegade's. The reason Renegade sucks has always been "they didn't have time to tweak the engine correctly" and "you can't even comprehend what this engine is capable of".. So? I saw the difference and went with it. I have never said I can't be wrong and in many cases I am. I don't like being wrong so I make it a case in point to be right as often as possible. You on the other hand preach "don't be an ass, you'll get banned and it's not nice" but you go around and do it anyway. When questioned, you bring out the "I'm just stooping to your level" excuse... Sorry man, but even the police can't rob a bank and say they're stooping to the level of a common robber... They get punished too. Or are you just an asshole who thinks he can do whatever he wants because you're above your own rules? Knight1b, the Commando always had a sniper rifle. It was a .50 caliber "Raptor" rifle that looked more like a shotgun than anything else. It killed most infantry with one shot, some taking two.
Stop bitching about the game and play it. You don't like the way EA made it? Then don't play it
Well you did get your wish, Renegade has about 80 servers if not less with something like 300 unique users a month. Compare that to the amount of servers for CS:S or HL2DM, which is well over 5,000 with about 9,000+ unique users a month...
msgtpain Aside from that, you're an ass.. and asses aren't allowed to play on our server.. Read the rules if you don't believe me. If I were you, I wouldn't let myself play on my server either...
knight1b I will have to check (ive got the original manual and other documentation here somewhere) but i dont recall the commando in the original c&c haveing a sniper rifle as his wepon to start with. http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/cncgold/gunits.html Seems pretty obvious though, he kill infantry at 3x the range of other infantry.
do you have any idea what weapon havoc weilds? its a 50mm sniper rifle, those weapons have the ability to peirce a humvee and it would tear it up if it hit, ditto with a helicopter.
Aircraftkiller Hulkcore you don't know shit. You're the same kind of person who thinks the AWP in CS is balanced. Ramjets can kill you from anywhere you can be seen. They reach the maximum view distance and easily tear apart light vehicles, infantry, and even damage structures with their charge of C4 explosives. In C&C, which this obviously is not anymore, commando units such as the "ramjet snipers" in Renegade could barely damage vehicles. They killed infantry and that was their entire purpose, along with structure demolition. Command & Conquer was balanced. Renegade is not. One unit should not be so multipurpose as to totally negate the need for several units. You would say it's balanced to have a button that only Havoc\Sakura can press that instantly kills the enemy team, if it were placed inside the Barracks\Hand of Nod. You would argue that you'd need more skill in order to get to their base and prevent them from pressing the button that effectively kills your entire team over and over until they decide to stop doing it. It doesn't take skill. Neither does using a n00b cannon Havoc\Sakura. I went into Renegade with it the past two days and easily destroyed everything without a problem, and got over 170 kills on a particular server over the course of five or six games before being banned for "known cheater," even though RenGuard was running. n00b cannons are not balanced. Renegade is not balanced. It may be whining, but that's irrelevant, I'd rather whine than have idiots like you dictate how the game is played when you know nothing about what makes a game Command & Conquer. I could really care less if Renegade is an exact replica of C&C 1. I don't want it to be. I want it to be Renegade. Renegade cannot and will never translate to anything close to C&C 1. Why? Because they are completly different games. In the RTS, you could also have hundreds of different units on each team, that can't happen in Renegade, so it is necessary to make every unit multifunctional. When you're limited to around 16 ppl per team in general, you need stuff to be multi purpose, hence mob/mend being good at killing anything close to it. Hence Gunner being good at killing almost anything if the user has some aiming skill. Hence APC's being able to hold their own against lights and stanks, as well as mobs/pics/etc... Hence every infantry having c4. Hence, Helis being good against tanks and infantry. And how's this for balance? The heli is nearly impervious to sniper fire and mostly all infantry. So now we have a unit that can ONLY be taken down by other helis. That's not realistic nor balanced at all. In real life, and in C&C 1, the counter to Helis is a nice GUIDED missle, which due to the limitations of the engine, we can't have. So...to keep the heli from bringing unchallenged death and destruction, there needs to be at lease something to take it out, so...snipers. I would see it as unbalanced if NOD had ramjets and GDI didn't or vice versa, but since both teams have the exact same unit it's simply another reason to try and take out the HON/BAR asap, or kill the ref/pp and make them too damn expensive to buy. There's a billion ways to win Renegade matches, ramjets or no. As it is, the ramjet gives a good reason to stop sniping and take out a building or two so you can snipe unhindered. And btw you're the idiot that's trying to dictate how the game should be played. I simply enjoy it for what it is, a GREAT game that I love. You're the asshole trying to push his gripes about sucking against snipers on me and everyone else. And what the hell, you're making up a random killing button? What does that have to do with anything? You're a complete moron. Does it take skill to defend against good snipers? Yes. Does it take skill to take out the HON/BAR, yes. So? Get better.
You make some good points. Personally I would like to have seen Renegade be as close to the original C&C as possible, but not everyone feels that way and I could still be happy with Renegade + all the things that weren't in Tiberian Dawn... if I felt that the gameplay was balanced. You talked about how it takes skill to deal with snipers and I'd agree with that, particularly in the case of flying an Orca or Apache. The problem is that it doesn't take much skill to shoot a large target with an instant-hit weapon (that just happens to do a ridiculous amount of damage per shot to light armour), from halfway across the map. From my experience, a handful of Ramjet snipers can deal with twice their number in aircraft quite easily. The only time that aircraft become a threat to snipers is at medium-close range... and by the time that you've reached medium range the sniper has taken away nearly all of your health. You have to be a pretty good player to use aircraft effectively against an enemy team using Ramjets, but even a mediocre player can keep aircraft at bay with his 1000 point sniper. Snipers are overpowered against aircraft, plain and simple. Of course, once the Hand or Barracks is down the situation is turned on it's head and it's the aircraft that become overpowered (it's almost impossible to down a good pilot without snipers). I can't see how anyone can look at this and think to themselves that Renegade's gameplay is perfectly balanced and that people who complain about snipers (or aircraft, for that matter), are just not very good at the game.
people that suck at this game piss me off, the only way to deal with a good sniper is to counter with a sniper, suck at sniping? tough titty said the kitty when the milk went dry. If you cant get by a sniper with helis or humvees, then use......ANOTHER STRATEGY! omg who'd a thunk it? maybe you CAN avoid sniper rape if you use an APC, MED, LightTank, Flamer, or Stank! omfg im on a freakin roll. fact is, if you are playin with helis, then you are playin AOW, in which case snipers play a less significant roll, just Tank rush their base and you win. nuff said.
No, take a APC and run their asses over
I remember joining a huge ass server once, on City_Flying, and GDI's base lost its AGT. I went over there with an APC and ran over about 50 people atleast. It was fun as hell.
Ran a n00b over once, we was like... OMG!!! HOST!!! GLYDE IS CHEATING!!! HE JUST RAN ME OVER AND I HAD A HAVOC AND THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!! Since I was the host I kicked him. He was a dumbass.
Want to take out a team of snipers? Use team work you wouldnt belive how far it gets you. One thing i like is to grab a transport choper have 1 or 2 of my guys run out and jump around the feild then when the snipers come out to play squish! A sniper even a good one is somewhat limited while hes snipeing as well so another tactic might be sneak up behind them and stick a timed c4 on them. Again theres plenty of ways to just plain deal with it.
Only problem is that teamwork is hard to find in Renegade.
And that a team of n00b cannons can eliminate several soldiers without taking a loss. Somehow I doubt the people saying "deal with it" are good players. I've been playing three years, three literal years (3 December of 2001), and know what I am talking about because I've been through it all. I keep a constant K\D ratio of over 5.0 because I can easily kill people with any of the sniper units in Renegade. It's not that hard to use them, and that's the reason why they're so used...
but if you truely have skillz than you dont need a n00bjet to own at sniping, a 500 works just fine for me, but in AOW i generally use a n00bjet just to mow down any humvees that want to try to sneak in and take out my refinery.
500 credit snipers destroy vehicles easily as well. It takes little skill to use either unit. I rarely need to use the scope to kill someone with a 500 credit or 1,000 credit "sniper" character as I can lock on their head and hit them with great accuracy.
ahh and it takes some1 with supreme skill to weild a med tank....ummm no. 500 does do a fair amount of damage, but not much and helis and humvees can easily avoid such snipers before they get destroyed. and sniper units are revered in several games, not just renegade. For instance: Halo, i get one whenever i can in that game, takes more skill to use than in renegade, but i use it none-the-less. and after playing for five years if you didnt own at sniping i would point and laugh at you. hell ive only been playing for one and a half and im not too shabby.
=[DT =gbull=[L]=]but if you truely have skillz than you dont need a n00bjet to own at sniping, a 500 works just fine for me, but in AOW i generally use a n00bjet just to mow down any humvees that want to try to sneak in and take out my refinery. You just made our argument for us. If a unit has as precise a weapon as a sniper rifle, it needs to be limited somehow. That's all we're asking for. Right now, especially on Fan Map servers, if a n00bcannon gets within targeting distance, the Finger of God descends in the form of a blue streak, even(and usually especially) when most players are struggling to get a $500 character early in the game. What we are asking is that the weapon be balanced, right now it turns even mediochre snipers into Gods, and that is unfair to the opposing team. It's too powerful and it taunts the opposing team, it in effect says "Yeah, I'm out here, way beyond you're most long range weapon. I can kill you at will and my only weaknesses are running out of ammo and if you can somehow live long enough to trace my location and get a tank here, in which case I probably long gone, or get another n00bjet to kill me before I can see him and kill him myself." It sucks, it's unfair, it's a cheat that's allowed because the devs never got around to fixing it and people who use them are n00bs of the highest level because they would suck otherwise(in a fair fight). It needs to be limited somehow, if you are incapable or, more frighteningly, unwilling to change the damage profile, at least make it single shot with one mother of a reload time(I don't think 2x what a railgun needs is totally out of the question, I mean if you're going to camp anyway, waiting 4-5 secs between kil, er...shots shouldn't matter to you.)
Ordinary sniper rifles already do enough damage. Ramjets are overkill. Since Renegade does not include limiters such as recoil, a moderately good player can hit the same spot with 4 rounds in a matter of seconds. Forget that a weapon that big "should" be able to damage vehicles as much as it does, or kill with one shot...it doesn't matter what is realistic, it is bad for gameplay balance. There are dedicated anti-vehicle weapons available, the sniper weapons do not need, and should not be able, to fill that role as well. And I don't care how good of a shot the sniper is, or how long they've been playing, it sucks donkey nuts to get spawn-raped six times in a row because you had the misfortune of appearing in his line of sight. AA duty should be one area where snipers are useless, it should not be their exclusive domain. The high damage, accuracy, and precision of sniper weaponry makes anything airborne obsolete- but everyone should know that already. There are plenty of effective counters to aircraft; PIC's, Railguns, LCGs, APCs, Even Hummers and Buggies...sniper weapons outclass every one of those except the LCG in terms of speedy kills, and that's not even taking range into consideration. Anyone who defends the existence of the Ramjet as a weapon is either a player who hides behind it like a blankie, or someone who doesn't pay any attention to the goings-on while playing. Or both. Personally, I'd like to see Havoc and Sakura turned into the commandos they both should have been. If anyone actually looks back to TD, commandos weren't really anything special against infantry despite having sniper rifles- they fired too slow to kill off even a small group before being overrun. And they couldn't do a damn thing to vehicles. Demolition was the only thing commandos really did well, and only then if the enemy didn't see them coming.
And it may not change because too many people who still play Renegade want to sit there shooting down aircraft and destroying MRLS, Mobile Artillery, Humvee's and Nod Buggies with out any effort... Not to mention racking up thousands of kills and points from "sniping" basic infantry and vehicles. If it were up to me, there wouldn't be any ramjet, it would take 4 body/limb shots to kill basic infantry. Havoc and Sakura would just have the same sniper rifle as the blackhand and deadeye snipers do, only they have better health. Sydney PIC and Raveshaw's rail gun and bazookas would be the only weapons that would cause the most significant damage to all units, infantry. The whole point system is fucked up and it should be changed to what the RenAlert point system is now. Would change the lame ass stalemate matches on field where too often than not, the camping team(usually Nod) would receive too many points from shooting and destroying the attacking forces vehicles. :rolleyes:
the only reason I'm trying to make you see is that if you take out the ramjet, nothing is stopping people from using helicopters to decimating you. and if you limit ramjets, then chances are, only n00bs will have them. If it was an infantry game, then i wouldnt care, but since it would give helis a huge advantage you should keep them. Also, it will be artillery and they will fear nothign except laserchaingunners.
You people always forget about the PIC and Railgun weapons... You need to read the whole post... Besides, n00bs aren't goot with aircraft.
Quote: if you take out the ramjet, nothing is stopping people from using helicopters to decimating you. *sniff sniff* I smell bullshit. You don't need overkill to get kills. APC's make great AA units, for 500 cheaper than a Ramjet. Laser Chainguns actually damage aircraft faster once they are in range of them. PICs and Railguns also work very well. Even the SBH's Laser Rifle works well in a pinch, and the pilot might not see where the shots are coming from until too late. MRLS work well if you see the aircraft coming from long range, as some of the rockets track. Hell, I've taken down a few with a Stealth Tank. If you make good use of cover, even a Hummer or Buggy will do. Ramjets are simply not necessary, are too powerful, and end up screwing over people who take the time to learn how to use other tactics. If Ramjets were removed, you would find that many "useless" units suddenly become useful and valuable.
For proper game balance everything should have a counter. Vehicles, even a Mammoth, rightly fear a player with a Personal Ion Cannon or a Rail Gun. It only takes 5 shots from a PIC/Rail to kill a helicopter/orca, but like any long range weapon, it's virtually useless in close quarters. Infantry rightly fears a sniper at long range, but a SBH or Patch owns them if they get close enough. The only weapon that doesn't have a counter isthe n00bjet. It can kill an Arty before it can be brought to bear, it can kill an Orca before it gets in range of it's rockets, and it can kill ANY infantry before they get anywhere near being able to lay down any suppressing fire. A n00bjet doesn't require any real skill aside from a steady hand and fast reflexes, unlike say a rocket or grenade launcher.
Lets talk realism some of you seem to love that. realisticly if someone shot you with a ramjet in the real word you would die.
Or even some places in the torso for that matter...lung shots aren't always fatal if treated quickly enough. Same thing with the kidneys, you have two of those...intestines, bladder, liver, even the gonads...The only two shots which are guaranteed to kill are heart and head- and even a bullet in the heart will leave you with a few more seconds to a minute. Granted, the wound inflicted by such a large-caliber rifle would be horrific, but unless the projectile was explosive, it likely would leave you with a few more minutes to do your business before expiring unless placed in your heart, or your brain. Realism is not the issue here- the isssue is game balance. It doesn't matter if someone is shooting you with blow-darts, water pistols, or cruise missiles, if having those weapons kill you in one shot is bad for balance, then they should not kill you in one shot. End of story.
A sniper rifle, even a 50 cal, has 2 instant killzones. Between the eyes and centermast. Anywhere else may be a mortal wound, but if we're talking realistic, infantry weapon ranges should be tripled, tank ranges and damages should be quadrupled and all tanks should have one-hit kills on infantry that are anywhere near a shell when it goes off. But we aren't talking realistic, we're talking fair and play balanced. A n00bjet offsets the play balance too far in favor of the team that has them. A team that has lost their vehicles can still defend against an enemy attack easily, unless the opposing team has a n00bjetter. Then it's only a matter of seconds before the adv. inf defenders are toast and the enemy walks into the base effectively unopposed because basic inf can't defend against a med/flame tank rush.
Its called skill, you know that thing were those n00bs don't bother you because you aim for the HEAD!
I purposely hunt n00bjetters, sometimes to the point of ignoring other units I pass on my way even if they give chase... ... and the best part is when the n00bjetters then whine about their death, or brag about a victory where they have 10 health left. They fucking suck, regardless, and shouldn't be in the game. I don't know why they are there in the first place. They just cause game balance problems. And somebody mentioned vehicles weaving to avoid fire? That's exactly what I would want in a target. I want them to take their time to come to me. That's more time to get shots in. If I see a humvee zig-zag, I consider it dead. If I see an artillery or MLRS try, lol, they're ultrafucked. Aircraft twirling is the only real kind of vehicular "dodge" but even that doesn't really matter since they have nicely-shaped cockpit areas to hit, and don't take many shots to down with a sniper rifle.
I just conducted an impromptu experiment. It proves nothing but illustrates the point. I loaded a Skirmish00 map against some AI, I don't have broadband at this location. Anyway, I started with a deadeye(gdi 500 sniper) I killed 8 AIs before I died. I then bought a havoc(gdi n00bjet) and proceeded to kill 10 or 12 before i quit. I ran out of ammo, I didn't die. Nor am I the best sniper in the world, as anybody whose played against me can attest(I'm Ayle on the UN servers), I am more of a spray and pray type of player.
icedog90 Only problem is that teamwork is hard to find in Renegade. Sad, but true, not many people wanna team up. Actually, the best team mates are n00bs, they stick together for fear of dying, and they are less likely to go lone wolf or heroic alone style.
ya know wut, n00bjets are somewhat balanced, if you kill them with a hs its 90+ points (dont remember EXACTLY) thats hella points to me, so the balance here should be the want to kill them, I always go for 1000 as a 500 for the points, plain and simple. If you took out n00bjets tho, you would see how much the game would be unbalanced one way or the other. for instance, you are Nod on field, and say cowmisfit is on GDI (hes a good sniper, thats y i use him) cow is in the tunnels with 4 other 500 snipers(the same as him) and is pwnin the crap out of you. now you are enclosed through the front with 3 meds, an APC, and a MRL in back of them pounding your HON. What do you do? i'll tell you, pretty much nothing. If the MRL wasnt there you might be able to repair and take out the tanks at the same time but with that kind of firepower and no long range weapon to destroy it, your raped in the ass....Say goodbye to the Hand of Nod, and now you have almost nothing, so now the APC goes and with the cover of the meds and the MRL they take out the obby and the snipers in the tunnels are no longer confined. Sry that may be a stretch but it is a situation in which you would need one, and dont tell me an arty rush, or a flame rush cuz that bullshit would get shut down by any decent Med pilots.
I think the Ramjet should keep its effectiveness against the hummer and buggy. The real Barrett is used to crack engine blocks to disable vehicles so in that respect it is realistic.
But the entire concept of Command & Conquer is not realism.
In the described situation of being trapped in the NOD base, I would buy a rail gun and kill the MLRS in 5 shots, and if they started repairing it I would take out one of the tanks and try and force them back. Massed PIC/rails own tanks. GDI has the advantage on that map anyway. If however, I couldn't break the GDI choke hold on my base I would get an SBH and clear the snipers from the tunnels. As I stated previously, if an opponent has room to manuver, a standard sniper is at a supreme disadvantage close up against an enemy with a rapid fire weapon.
the sniper is only at a disadvantage if he is not 1337, you get 1 1337 sniper in the tunnels with no 1337s to counter him and the tunnels will remain under the sniper's control. an sbh cant do much if hes shot in the head.
If the SBH uses distractions to put his C4 on the sniper it won't matter much. But that is splitting hairs. All we're really asking for is an obvious and easily exploitable game bug to be fixed. Kind of like Harvy Walking.
but the bug to which you are referring to is one that the game designers made on purpose, to take that out is to remove a peice of renegade itself.
Quote: to take that out is to remove a peice of renegade itself. Well, a tumor is a part of you...but that doesn't mean you don't want it cut right the fuck out. "Because the devs did it" is not sufficient reason to call it balanced- that is why games get patched after release, because someone up top realizes they did something wrong. Why no patch? Because Westwood isn't around to fix it, and EA doesn't give a shit. Plenty of examples exist of an abandoned game's community getting together and fixing problems the devs never had a chance to deal with. The same thing needs to happen here.
IIRC, the n00bjet was left over from beta and slated to be fixed in the next patch, but WW was killed before that could happen. No game designer worth a fig would ever leave such a balance killing aspect unattended without a damn good reason. Look, I don't want to take away a crucial aspect of the game, I(and others) just feel that this isn't a crucial part of the game, and just causes unecessary resentment and hard feelings. I mean how many new players have picked up Renegade because they've been told it has a unique and rewarding MP experience, and then leave the community after only a few games, not because someone was cheating, but because some point-whore with a n00bjet sat and pwned him all the time with seemingly no way of stopping him? I was lucky, my dozen games were unmarred by such buffoonery, others have not been. The point is that any effective scenario for defeating a single n00bjet pwning people from way beyond a lot of maps' visual range involves commiting significant portions of a team's resources in both men and materiel, to the point where a single player with a n00bjet can effectively render a base defenseless against a weak vehicle rush that would be turned back with only 1 or 2 extra defenders. And don't bring up the suggestion that the defending team needed to find more players or that they need to get more skillz, I and many others play the game for recreation and have neither the time nor desire to develop the godlike skill that is required to adequately defend against a noobjet.
take my advise here for when you are gaming in renegade: "The best way to beat a sniper is to become one". When you do that, you are on equal ground and at then point can counter. The point of the game is to keep a balanced amount of infantry to vehicles. Infantry support the vehicles so the vehicles can rush. allowing laserchaingunners, Raves, and Mendozas to trounce your rushes every time would suck, cuz if you take away snipers, thats what everyone will be instead, and instead of going out into the open like normal, people would camp with these infantry waiting to point whore on your vehicles. of course a way to counter this is an MRL/arty attack, but then there is no counter to the MRL/arty attack when they are protected by APCs and being repaired by hotties. dont believe me, then set up a mod like the one you describe and you will see how boring the game truely is. There will be lack of skill and little barrier that seperate the 1337s from the Regulars would be quite noticable. I dont know bout you but im not the best person at this game, im far from it but having better snipers than me ingame is wut makes me better at it and makes the game more addictive.
Actually as a rule of thumb you should NEVER take on your opponent on equal ground if you can help it. Doing so you give him the same chance as you and that means you die if he is better. Give yourself an advantage over him and youre talking. that's how you beat people who are better than you. it's like the movie Troy....i haven't seen it, but have been told that men hide inside a big wooden horse in order to confuse a kingdom into thinking it is a gift from god, and take it inside (or inside enemy lines). Then, all h ell breaks loose and they take over. Had they just assaulted from the front they would probably have lost. As far as your example with camping laserchains, raves & mendozas, i don't see how that would be a problem because it works both ways. You can already camp, people do it on field as GDI when they lose their weps...camping won't get you points unless they bring units for you to attack. If they don't you'll have to go out and get the points yourself. Have you ever played a game on the hazteam server? they don't let you buy snipers at all, not even 500s. The only thing wrong i've noticed is that people like "mrnod2004" will use PIC/railgun to the death, and aircraft can get too powerful...which brings us to a point someone made a few pages back. If snipers get fixed it will be IMPORTANT to increase rifle soldier damage to aircraft and get rocketeers' rockets seeking out. The only characters, ever, who should kill in a single hit are 500 snipers [headshot] and railgun/personal ion cannons. If you have studied the way the game works you will also know that you can create new skin and armour types, new weapon types and assign damage values to them. you can also assign different damage ratios to the head, torse, legs, arms and a few others I think. the way it stands now is that the head takes 5x damage, the neck 3x and the others 1x. that is why, when you are a 1000 character and get shot in the neck by a 500 sniper you live, because 100 * 3 is 300, and you have 350 health in total. ~f
NukeIt15 Quote: to take that out is to remove a peice of renegade itself. Well, a tumor is a part of you...but that doesn't mean you don't want it cut right the fuck out. "Because the devs did it" is not sufficient reason to call it balanced- that is why games get patched after release, because someone up top realizes they did something wrong. Why no patch? Because Westwood isn't around to fix it, and EA doesn't give a shit. Plenty of examples exist of an abandoned game's community getting together and fixing problems the devs never had a chance to deal with. The same thing needs to happen here. To use a good example, since I was a developer of Renegade, look at Glacier Flying. When I first made it, we got it placed into the 1.035 patch or something like that. I can't remember what it was now. People complained about it and found a lot of problems, so I asked them to show me the problems and I fixed the ones I was able to solve. The 1.036 patch came out and fixed that problem. But the level still had a lot of problems and basically required an overhaul to fix all of them. We didn't get the time to do it, and Glacier Flying is still there in its problematic version, as compared to Glacier or GlacierTS. If I had the time I would have fixed it and sent it out again, but we didn't even have time for that. n00b cannons need to be fixed or just totally removed. There is no need to be a "sniper" to kill them. The best way to do it is to work it like Renegade Alert. Snipers are only useful against infantry, they are useless against anything else. They only kill with two or three body shots per soldier, depending on the soldier, and only kill with a single head shot unless it's the Volkov character. They have a bolt action rifle that has to be reloaded before being fired again, so each shot requires you to hit the head or spend 5+ seconds going for body shots. You learn to get skill, not easy wins.
Doitle I think the Ramjet should keep its effectiveness against the hummer and buggy. The real Barrett is used to crack engine blocks to disable vehicles so in that respect it is realistic. But we want Buggies and Humvees to be used don't we? Right now, as far as most people are concerned, they're a redunant unit that's only useful as a cheap APC at the start of the game. Only lunatics like me use them for the whole game, and even then it's mostly in a base defence capacity. They should be surprise attack units that use their speed to negate their lack of armour... move in, do the damage and then move out again before the enemy can bring the big guns to bear. Unfortunately, due to the the excessive range, damage, rate-of-fire and instant hitting capabilities of the Ramjet, as soon as people reach 1000 credits, you can't leave cover at all with a Buggy and expect to come back in one piece. The only exception that I've found is on C&C Islands, where the numerous rock formations allow you to dart in and out of cover, quickly repairing your vehicle in between forays. I tend to use Buggies and Humvees on that map exclusively to hunt 1000 credit snipers... it feels like poetic justice. It gives me great pleasure to appear out of nowhere and run them over, or gun them down at point blank range.
Quote: take my advise here for when you are gaming in renegade: "The best way to beat a sniper is to become one". When you do that, you are on equal ground and at then point can counter. If you switch to a sniper, sure you may be able to kill the Ramjet junkie, but you have to abandon whatever other role you were filling to do so. If the only way to counter a unit is by taking a similar unit, that is bad balance. No other unit has the range, accuracy, and HP to effectively counter a Ramjetter.
IF your role is that important then dont kill him, but some1 else can. And AirCraftKiller, your weak snipers on that game is the reason I dont play RenAlert. It takes off a whole new dimension to the game and everyone just uses tanks. There is no fun in everyone being armor and the other half camping or just repairing the tanks. The first time i played renalert it was me vs. a Allied Heli and I got pwned time and time again because nothing could stop that one heli. the game was only 3 vs three but as soon as i got his armor to red for HP he had already started repairing after killing me with my rifle, then my shock trooper, then my tank....and after that i was bored. because all i could do was sit in my base waiting for money.
Don't expect every game and mod you play to just drop an all-powerful smite-o-matic weapon in your lap whenever someone owns the hell out of you. A word of advice: don't use unbalanced, over-powered weapons as a substitute for skill and tactics. If you do, it tends to come back and bite you in the ass when you play a game that doesn't have them.
Basically, you're only real argument for the n00bjet to remain in it's current form is that it would unbalance the game. That's our argument too, it's present form ruins game balance. A single player with only moderate skill can effectively cover 3-4 artillery units that are pounding the enemy base. So not only does the enemy have to deploy sufficient units to deal with the artillery(2 tanks minimum) they have to also deploy enough units to deal with the n00bjet(2 additional tanks + repair and infantry coverage to guarentee elimination) so to defeat 5 enemy units the opposing team has to deploy at least 7, more likely 10 or more. In what way is that fair? The opposing team should at most have to deploy an equivalent number of units, probably less because in order to balance their awe inspiring offensive abilities, artillery has very limited defensive abilites.
ive stated before that i dont need a n00bjet to pwn, its just in certain cases it is more efficient.
The only time a Ramjet should not kill a basic infantry in 1 shot is if they where hit in the arm and that arm was well away from the torso. Why you may ask? Becuase your in a battle feild if your shot in the chest area with that much power your dead same with the head if your shot in the leg you got no leg and somehow i doubt your going to live long hoping around with out one.
YOU'RE
Call me a purist, but there are bigger problems manifesting itself in the point system. The Ramjet is just a part of an array of weapons that deliver way too many points for the damage inflicted. You could rack up a lot of points with APCs, Buggies, and Humvees. Such tactics are irritating, but can earn a lot of points--ever seen a Buggy leech points off of the enemy harvester on Hourglass when the harvester is in green health? No one has proven to me that your current state of health has a significant impact on how much damage you take. Logically, you would take more damage if your armor was diminished, but that only seems to be important with infantry (to a very little extend with high-explosive weapons). With vehicles, you don't take more damage when your armor is worn down, but when it is, you actually give less points to the enemy in most cases. Try it out yourself in a 1 player LAN--get a hummer and shoot at your harvester until you wear it down into yellow, and you will see you start to earn dramatically less points. If all vehicles were just given all health and no armor--as in, instead of 600 health/600 armor, simply give the mammoth tank 1200 health--then we would be rid of this point whoring--not just with Ramjets, but with other units as well. This would also allow the additional benefit of delivering points based on how much damage you inflict, not some insanely inflated number when you only do 5 units worth of damage. We can see that this works because buildings have only health, never any armor, so you always get a reliable and predictable award for every hitpoint you take away.
The damages are all preset and there's little difference in all of the armour types. I know a few differences are that chemical warriors and flamethrowers take less damage from handheld explosives and probably tank shells, making them useful to sneak with and fight engineers. Another is that the mutant and chemical thrower can walk on tiberium. The flamethrower is nearly immune to flame attacks (0.010% or something) and the chemical thrower won't lose health from another chemical sprayer. Everyone suffers against the ramjet though. there do need to be a few other changes though.....the nod rifle soldier does crap to an orca. Nod doesn't have a decent basic unit to fight vehicles with, so flamethrower damage against CnCVehicleMedium and CnCVehicleHeavy (as well as their armour types) should be upped. rocket soldiers must have seeking rockets. let the MRLS be less susceptible to sniper attack and allow more of its rockets to heat seek so that it can be a better anti-air unit alongside the rocket soldiers. give the orca/apache less ammunition/rockets but let the ammunition they have do good damage. add repair pads to walls fly and city fly, but don't let them be base-critical structures (meaning you take out the base and win while having them alive). add small invisible barriers to the walls fly defensive planforms, so that people will not lag off but can hop over them if they need to get off quickly. etc etc.
OK, my thoughts. I personally don't care all that much about their one-shot kill on basic infantry, or the fact they do rather a lot of damage to higher-class characters with a mere bodyshot. I can understand why others might, but I don't. Simple reason is well over 99% of players who choose the Ramjet over the 500 sniper are, quite simply, inferior shots. (I don't claim to be much good at sniping, but when I do choose to buy a sniper, I always seem to follow the same pattern: kill 4 havocs, get killed by a deadeye. kill 3 havocs, get killed by a deadeye. It happens 99% of the time, and I do not believe it is a coincidence) I am concerned about the damage they inflict on light vehicles. What are supposed to be the anti-tank units in Renegade? PIC/Raveshaw, Mobius/Mendoza, Gunner etc. A ramjet can take out a light vehicle faster than any of the above, and does NOT have the weaknesses each of those weapons have (PIC reload time, Mobius short range, Gunner rocket can be avoided). If anybody does not believe that is complete bullshit... they are, quite simply, wrong. If anybody believes that will make MRLS/Artillery too powerful, then you really don't understand the game, because ramjets are not and have never been the best weapon for killing those. However, the main problem is the points. Nobody has ever provided a logical explanation why a ramjet should get 10 points a shot or more (depending on the vehicle), for attacking something it does negligible damage to. It makes me sick to play in a 50 player server where 30 players have been n00bjetting ever since they had $1000, and by the end of the game they have zero kills, done absolutely nothing to affect actual gameplay, but have 5000 points to show for it. Again, the word "bullshit" is the most appropriate description I can think of.
This kid knows his shit. Nice explaination, i wouldnt mind if the point values were tweaked for heavy armored vehicle shots.
Uh, this is what I've been saying for well over a year bull. Try paying attention please.