Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
Figured as a member of BHS, I'd start the topic rolling. We want to do some unit balance changes. Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered. This way, aircraft will be usable, without being blown away five seconds after leaving their base. My suggestions are that missile armed units (Rocket Soldier, Gunner, Recon Bike, MRLS, Mammoth Tank, Orca, Stealth Tank) track units better. This will replace the "need" of "snipers" to destroy aircraft or other light armored vehicles. Additionally, this would also entail the use of Helicopter Pads where aircraft rearm, and only have one weapon - Orca would be armed with its TOW-2B missiles, six salvos. Apache would have 25-75 rounds of chain-gun ammunution, both would rearm back at the Helicopter Pad instead of endlessly loitering over the battlefield.
sounds good. No more n00bjetters The rockets for the infantry dont need to seek. aslo thats excellent about the aircrafts. On big maps they wont get pwned now. Wont alot of fan maps become usless.
Sounds plausible. I was getting tired of continuosly getting blown out of the sky by a n00bjet rifle. The snipers and choppers seem to be the only units that need to be revamped. The rest seem fine in my opinion.
Havoc/Sakura really needs to get his/her gun reduced, esp. against MRLS/Art. I'd also like to see tracking missles.
Please note that ACK intended to start a discussion on what we will change if there's support for the ideas. This isn't something that will definitely happen, we are hoping you guys will brainstorm ideas for how to keep balance. Also know that any changes we make will have to be tested. Balance is a delicate procedure and it's perfectly reasonable to expect several variations to get a balance that makes for exciting gameplay.
yay, well kinda, thats good then, it will become better. but how will you inforce these changes? or will the server choose?
The aircraft should have more ammo than you prepose. Both aircraft should have enough ammunition to take out a tank. Not a Mammoth of course, but being able to take out, or almost take out, a medium tank (Nod) and a light tank (GDI) if every round hit. This would prevent the bordom factor of firing a few rounds, returning to refill, fire a few more, base becomes decimated as a group can only take out one tank at a time. It would make them powerful, hence the need to refill, but not completely useless against armor.
If you've installed RenGuard 1.02, you were asked if you'd like BHS to automatically apply core updates as they become available. Saying Yes to this question will allow us to apply patches to your game files wherever a client-side fix is necessary to make the change.
warranto The aircraft should have more ammo than you prepose. Both aircraft should have enough ammunition to take out a tank. Not a Mammoth of course, but being able to take out, or almost take out, a medium tank (Nod) and a light tank (GDI) if every round hit. This would prevent the bordom factor of firing a few rounds, returning to refill, fire a few more, base becomes decimated as a group can only take out one tank at a time. It would make them powerful, hence the need to refill, but not completely useless against armor. Aircraft are support units in C&C. Renegade is based off C&C. Aircraft are meant to do quick strikes, not destroy things easily like that. If so, that makes everyone want to get aircraft... Then it negates the use of ground vehicles. The missiles on an Orca would damage a Medium Tank 25%, and a Light Tank 50%. Not so much with the Apache, as it would be more effective against infantry and buildings.
I like the idea for the snipers, that would be a major improvement for the game. But, as for the helicopters, they may not of been like that in TD, but I don't think such a big change should be made to the way they are in Renegade. I'm not saying keep the unlimited ammo, because if snipers can't damage them, everyone might suddenly seem like TankClash when they're flying one I just don't think 6 missles, and 25-75 is enough for renegade.
hmm this could be cool. Definitly the air craft reloading on a helipad and not having unlimted ammo is cool, but what about tanks? Tanks should have to refill to but have a larger stock of ammo than orca and apache. If tanks have an limeted amount of ammo, it would lead to much much more stratigic gameplay, which would be really cool.
Aircraftkiller warranto The aircraft should have more ammo than you prepose. Both aircraft should have enough ammunition to take out a tank. Not a Mammoth of course, but being able to take out, or almost take out, a medium tank (Nod) and a light tank (GDI) if every round hit. This would prevent the bordom factor of firing a few rounds, returning to refill, fire a few more, base becomes decimated as a group can only take out one tank at a time. It would make them powerful, hence the need to refill, but not completely useless against armor. Aircraft are support units in C&C. Renegade is based off C&C. Aircraft are meant to do quick strikes, not destroy things easily like that. If so, that makes everyone want to get aircraft... Then it negates the use of ground vehicles. The missiles on an Orca would damage a Medium Tank 25%, and a Light Tank 50%. Not so much with the Apache, as it would be more effective against infantry and buildings. True enough. Though admittedly I did aim high on purpose, simply to establish a maximum. It's simply an attempt to balance realism with the fun factor.
It's not about realism, it's about C&C. The aircraft can be made to handle better in order to make up for the loss of ammunution.
Interesting idea... but it'll only work in big games... Small games especially 1v1 will become useless on cityfly/wallsfly without the orca's machinegun... I can't help but oppose this.
Renegade is fine the way it is. Spoony, I take offense to your signature.
Heh, by "realism" I was referring to the C&C universe.
spoonyrat Interesting idea... but it'll only work in big games... Small games especially 1v1 will become useless on cityfly/wallsfly without the orca's machinegun... I can't help but oppose this. This explains it... Quote: Aircraft are support units in C&C. Renegade is based off C&C. Aircraft are meant to do quick strikes, not destroy things easily like that. Personally I say do it, snipers are too powerful at the moment. I suggest toning them down so that they only effectively hurt men but not get mass points off tanks. Their firerate is quiet high as well.... In order to 'balance' it - rockets should track more effectively (as you said on the first post). But If snipers aren't able to be toned down, then the artirelly and the MRLS should be less open to sniper fire.
I think giving stuff like rocket soldiers and the MRLS better anti-air ability is a great idea, but messing around with the air unit's weapon systems and sniper's anti-air damage will change Renegade for the worse. One thing I would definitely support is if snipers didn't get points from attacking stuff they don't damage i.e. tanks. I can't help but cringe to see 70% of a team in a public buy ramjets just to shoot enemy tanks.
Quote: Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered. What about the points you receive for the useless sniping of stanks for example? They should be reduced in my opinion. To the sniper-heli interaction: I like the idea of having a counter unit against helis and these counter units are definately Havocs/Sakuras. The same as an APC counters a Sniper. Counter units are a classical element of RTS games, so why weaken it? And of course, if you have 5 helis in your teams, and the enemy has 5 Snipers, then thats your own fault. You could change easily to tanks and rush their base. Snipers are not overpowered. They leave the base defenseless. But I agree: if the map is really large, then you wont reach your target with helicopters. I never played on this kind of maps though. However, on City_Flying you can easily group with an APC and eliminate the enemy snipers. As you have to balance mainly for the main maps, please take that into account.
Everyone wishes to be a sniper, few actually are. Look at all the n00bies who run around doing nothing but bodyshots with there havoc, and get it just to get hte points for shooting tanks, then there are people like me that buy an 500 sniper, aim for head, does not shoot tanks or buildings at all, because i have the skill to get top 5 just by killing people. I think that headshot should still be 1 shot 1 kill, but i body shots should be less powerful.
I think we should cut back on snipers and instead make rockets (for example, the Rocket Launcher and the MRLS and others, also the recon bike if its put back in) the main anti-aircraft weapons. Snipers should be for taking out people and should do lots of damage (and get lots of points for attacking) people. They should do almost no damage (and get almost no points for attacking) vechicles and buildings. Every unit should have a speciality. For example, snipers are great for taking out infantry. Engineers are great for repariing shit and stopping beacons. Rocket Launchers are great for taking out armoured stuff (including aircraft) Machine guns are good at taking out lightly armoured stuff Tanks are great at taking out medium armoured stuff etc
I was thinking the same thing as spoony at the start of this topic. In the best interests of this game, yes, by all means tone down the amount of damage ramjet rifles do to aircraft. But the weapon arms on the aircraft should not be changed. If we armed all orcas and apaches with small arms made for a "quick attack and back", that wouldn't work in smaller games. This would be a good idea, if we were playing a 50 v 50 game. Which will not happen. Games like tiberian sun and red alert enabled you to built tons and tons of units. In Renegade, lets say the average game is going to be a 10 v 10. Now, if we keep the weapon arms on the aircraft the same, I strongly think the balance would come in the fact that rocket soldier officers / MRLS / stealth tanks / mammoth tusk missiles etc done "a lot" of damage to aircraft. How about 1 rocket does the same amount of damage as a ramjet would have? Which is, 2 squares of damage per rocket hit. This would keep the pilots cautions (especially of MRLS -- 2 or 3 of the 6 rocket barriage always homes in at the moment) but it would also prevent the "instant hit" crap that comes from ramjets. Also, if possible, keep the chance of a missile homing in at 50%, otherwise travelling straight ahead. This would prevent you happening upon an aircraft and taking it out too quickly with your 6 missile barrage.
Aircraftkiller Figured as a member of BHS, I'd start the topic rolling. We want to do some unit balance changes. Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered. This way, aircraft will be usable, without being blown away five seconds after leaving their base. My suggestions are that missile armed units (Rocket Soldier, Gunner, Recon Bike, MRLS, Mammoth Tank, Orca, Stealth Tank) track units better. This will replace the "need" of "snipers" to destroy aircraft or other light armored vehicles. Additionally, this would also entail the use of Helicopter Pads where aircraft rearm, and only have one weapon - Orca would be armed with its TOW-2B missiles, six salvos. Apache would have 25-75 rounds of chain-gun ammunution, both would rearm back at the Helicopter Pad instead of endlessly loitering over the battlefield. i like the first part but the second part about rearming back at the pad i dont like.. tanks dont need to rearm so why should the orca / apache just give them decent reload times
Aircraftkiller Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered. But can you make it where they get the same amount of points...because everyone has their forte and like mine, it's sniping. I shouldn't get docked 120 points because snipers are too useless to use and I'm at the bottom of the ladder list in points.
Slash0x Aircraftkiller Almost certainly, we'll end up changing the "snipers" so that they're not grossly overpowered. But can you make it where they get the same amount of points...because everyone has their forte and like mine, it's sniping. I shouldn't get docked 120 points because snipers are too useless to use and I'm at the bottom of the ladder list in points. when i snipe im never at the bottem of the list.. try killing adv infantry and not.. basic.. also i think would be good is to stop snipers shooting armored tanks for 15 points a shot.. they should get less or just 0 snipers get there points from killing infantry
Majiin Vegeta when i snipe im never at the bottem of the list.. try killing adv infantry and not.. basic.. I know that, you barely get anything in Renegade already against 0 infantry, the only true benefit is to better a k/d ratio. Majiin Vegeta also i think would be good is to stop snipers shooting armored tanks for 15 points a shot.. they should get less or just 0 snipers get there points from killing infantry If I am willing to shoot at a tank, should be my own choice, all I am doing is wasting bullets to kill infantry...I came to this several times, so I know (and I don't get refills every five seconds because I got barely hit for 60 health...). :rolleyes:
Slash0x If I am willing to shoot at a tank, should be my own choice, all I am doing is wasting bullets to kill infantry...I came to this several times, so I know (and I don't get refills every five seconds because I got barely hit for 60 health...). :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Then why should you get points for it then? All you are doing is wasting ammo on it. The default mammoth missles I think they might need an increase in range.
drkhaze I was thinking the same thing as spoony at the start of this topic. In the best interests of this game, yes, by all means tone down the amount of damage ramjet rifles do to aircraft. But the weapon arms on the aircraft should not be changed. If we armed all orcas and apaches with small arms made for a "quick attack and back", that wouldn't work in smaller games. This would be a good idea, if we were playing a 50 v 50 game. Which will not happen. Games like tiberian sun and red alert enabled you to built tons and tons of units. In Renegade, lets say the average game is going to be a 10 v 10. Now, if we keep the weapon arms on the aircraft the same, I strongly think the balance would come in the fact that rocket soldier officers / MRLS / stealth tanks / mammoth tusk missiles etc done "a lot" of damage to aircraft. How about 1 rocket does the same amount of damage as a ramjet would have? Which is, 2 squares of damage per rocket hit. This would keep the pilots cautions (especially of MRLS -- 2 or 3 of the 6 rocket barriage always homes in at the moment) but it would also prevent the "instant hit" crap that comes from ramjets. Also, if possible, keep the chance of a missile homing in at 50%, otherwise travelling straight ahead. This would prevent you happening upon an aircraft and taking it out too quickly with your 6 missile barrage. It's not about small games. A LOT of tactics don't work in small games. So what? Why should the entire game be adjusted so that it works optimally in smaller games? Aircraft need to be like they were in C&C, or flying becomes unenjoyable garbage because you get shot down the moment you leave your base. Doing it the way I said makes the game like C&C, what it was meant to be, and balances out without a problem.
Is this patch going to be an optional one? Will people who have it be able to play on non-patched servers? Frankly, I dislike most of these changes, having already played through them on ACK's maps and RenAlert... if WW wanted the game to play like that, they'd have done it themselves. While I can appreciate your fervor in wanting it to be exactly like C&C was, Ren is fun solely because it took liberties to improve gameplay in areas where a direct comparison would have been not as cool. Take artillery, for example, or grenadiers. The artillery would have been impossible to use well in Ren if it had to fire in an arc. The way it is now, it still has a minimum firing range, yet works much better in the game's engine. If you're going to balance something, make it so GDI and Nod Rifle Soldiers do the same damage, or make it so both the Orca and Apache have the same machine guns, or make Tib Rifle Sydney a little better considering the Chemwarrior is a much more useful character. Making the aircraft have actual clips wouldn't be a bad plan, either; say 4-6 rockets for an Orca, then a reload similar to the MRLS. Since the Orca doesn't have the same ROF as an MRLS does this would be a decent balance change that wouldn't horribly impact the game. Also, try making the machine guns on the aircraft not be 100% accurate, as both have a spray radius of 0 right now. I suppose this was done to try to negate the impact of "float" on your shots but these guns are too beefy vs. infantry. Lowering the ROF by about 20% might not be a bad call, or making the warhead not Steel because they have a disproportionate impact on infantry.
Quote: if WW wanted the game to play like that, they'd have done it themselves. That's nowhere near true. WS would have patched the game for unit balance if EA had allocated the resources for it. Quote: The artillery would have been impossible to use well in Ren if it had to fire in an arc. The way it is now, it still has a minimum firing range, yet works much better in the game's engine. You mean it doesn't require skill. Gotcha. I don't get why people play a C&C game and want to turn it into something that isn't C&C gameplay. If you want Unreal, go play it... Most people were expecting C&C up close, not some bastardized version of it.[/list]
So we are looking at something like the remake you did of City_Flying? The idea sounds good for an option, I would try both before choosing one though. A project such as this might have uptake problems. If you look at a non fanmap-dedicated server, when they do have the occasional fan map, they tend to empty.
When you install/installed RenGuard 1.02, you were asked if you wanted us to automatically install bug fixes from BlackHand Studios. Whether these types of changes are included is completely based on your feedback.
if you're going to allocate ammo for the apaches/orcas then I think that their power should be increased slightly as when you go off to reload the tank driver you were attacking can just get out and repair while you are reloading
And crimson, are we still able to play on nonpatched servers with the patches, and vice versa?
The bug fixes we have scheduled right now will work on ANY server you join. As far as balance changes, we're going to need to do a LOT of brainstorming and playing with the engine to figure out the best way to deliver those changes to you. If we can do it server-side, that would be optimal.
When you start releasing updates for the engine & sutff. is it possible to make it so that the changes only work in patched servers, and a different configuration can be used in non patched servers? that way we can play in any server
I agree with all your suggestions except the Orca/Apache ammo. It's a great idea to have them rearm at the Helipad, but I think they need more ammo. In Tiberian Dawn you could build large groups of them, but you only control yourself in Renegade (and other players won't necessarily co-operate with you all the time), so I think it would be better if you had at least enough Orca missiles to destroy a basic tank on your own. Aircraft in Renegade were either far too weak or far too strong, depending on whether the enemy had snipers. If the Hand/Barracks was down, they ruled over everything, because they could stay in the air indefinitely and their chainguns could rip through both tanks and infantry. Now if you make them specialized, with the Orca finding it hard to take out infantry and the Apache doing little damage to tanks (unless in groups), then you've already narrowed their effectiveness to one type of unit. When you factor in having to return to base to reload every so often, I think you can safely give them a moderate supply of ammo without it affecting the unit balance. They wouldn't be all-powerful anymore, even without anti-air snipers, because they wouldn't be able to damage all units to the same degree.
Aircraftkiller Quote: if WW wanted the game to play like that, they'd have done it themselves. That's nowhere near true. WS would have patched the game for unit balance if EA had allocated the resources for it. What kind of "resources" would it take? Anyone could bang out something like that in the Ren tools in like 30 minutes. Do some in-house testing, which I'm sure is what you'll be doing with your patch, and send it out. If it was so resource intensive that a big company like EA didn't want to do it then why are you able to do it? Aircraftkiller Quote: The artillery would have been impossible to use well in Ren if it had to fire in an arc. The way it is now, it still has a minimum firing range, yet works much better in the game's engine. You mean it doesn't require skill. Gotcha. I don't get why people play a C&C game and want to turn it into something that isn't C&C gameplay. If you want Unreal, go play it... Most people were expecting C&C up close, not some bastardized version of it. I fail to see how being able to only shoot at stationary targets and skill are equated. I'd think it'd be the other way around; it takes no skill to hit a stationary target. As I said before, I can appreciate the fact that you want to make this game exactly like C&C, but there's a reason it wasn't made like that. There's also a reason games like Unreal are infinitely more popular than Ren, since you brought that up: they're simple. Simplicity in form and perfection in execution are much better goals to shoot for. Complexity, while it may keep some of the hardcore people playing, will alienate most of the rest of your userbase. I might as well ask this here: if this forum has been opened to discuss balance changes, among other things, and you're not going to actually read what people say with at least an attempt at objectivism, then why are we even bothering to post our opinions?
Crimson The bug fixes we have scheduled right now will work on ANY server you join. To me, this seems tantamount to an endorsement of cheating. Some people may not agree that all of the "bugs" actually need to be changed. (And as self-proclaimed "leaders of the community," you should be sympathetic to those of us who wish to play the game un-modded.) You may not think of these bug fixes a cheat. But consider this: if one person starts with a pistol always loaded, and another must reload his pistol before firing, doesn't that give one player an unfair advantage? (Granted, this is not as extreme as, say, a bighead mod, but it is still unfair.) Another example: if only one or two people in a game can see icons to go along with radio messages, doesn't that create an unfair situation? I believe that if you want to fix bugs and make balance changes, you should release everything as a mod to the game, so people can still play a totally un-modified game on certain servers. Don't just try to change the game itself. Doing that only punishes those of us who want to play the game the way Westwood made it. -mahkra
In responce to the pistol thing, thats exactly why I always reload after killing somebody.
Anyone with an ounce of sense reloads their pistol once they've bought their character.
Quote: What kind of "resources" would it take? Anyone could bang out something like that in the Ren tools in like 30 minutes. Do some in-house testing, which I'm sure is what you'll be doing with your patch, and send it out. If it was so resource intensive that a big company like EA didn't want to do it then why are you able to do it? That isn't the point. They have to assign a team of beta testers to make sure it works right and that nothing is overbalanced. Then, after that testing phase, it has to go to EA's quality assurance department. If it passes that, it has to get compiled into a patch for release, and possibly release another patch to fix issues that arised from the one before it. That's why they didn't release a patch to fix gameplay, because they'd need to release more as the game changed. Quote: As I said before, I can appreciate the fact that you want to make this game exactly like C&C, but there's a reason it wasn't made like that. Yeah, you're right. There is a reason. Electronic Arts suits decided it needed to be changed at E3 2000. "Hey, that Buggy is cool and all, but you can make it better. So do it." And so forth. This is how we ended up with Renegade as it is today. If they had left development to WS, and had they developed Renegade faster than five years, we'd have a true C&C experience. Quote: Complexity, while it may keep some of the hardcore people playing, will alienate most of the rest of your userbase. People use Artillery all of the time in RA. I don't see any complaints about it being changed. People who use it normally say they love how it works now, because it has massive range with better damage, but less accuracy. Those who don't like it... Do not use it. They simply use another unit on the Allied vehicle arsenal. Quote: I might as well ask this here: if this forum has been opened to discuss balance changes, among other things, and you're not going to actually read what people say with at least an attempt at objectivism, then why are we even bothering to post our opinions? Because I don't make the balance changes. I'm here to argue my position, and I will do so because I want this game to be what it was intended to be, not this bullshit we're playing right now.
Just as a side note - Renegade multiplayer was only added in the last 6 months of development, and was absolutely not a priority. For the majority of the game's development, it was purely a single-player game. The beta test was used to address some balance issues, but obviously some still remain - that can't be denied. I don't agree with all the changes ACK wants to make but that's why this has been opened to the public.
Exactly. All I want is this game to be what it was envisioned to be, C&C in first person. Not Unreal & Conquer, or Command & Doom or whatever else people here think it needs to be balanced off.
Just one little thing about artillary, If your aimed at something exactly thats not moving, sometimes it goes right on, others of to the right, or down. It's a little un accurate. Supposed to be like that?
Seriously homey, I really didn't expect a dumb question like that from you.
Homey: most of the guns in the game aren't perfectly accurate, the glaring exceptions being Orca/Apache machine guns. ACK: I think you're taking what I am saying a little out of context. I was pointing those things out as examples of items that were changed to increase playability. You may argue that no one has a beef with your artillery currently, but the people who play RA are a small subset of all Ren players, and most of them play it because they like what you've done to make it adhere to the original game. I don't play it because I dislike these changes, so we'll just get that on the table now. I hardly think what Ren is now is "bullshit" as you so succintly put it. It may not be literal 100% true to C&C gameplay, but for me I prefer it that way because it's faster-paced. Ren is one of the slowest-paced FPSes out there, and the only reason I DO still play it when better games are out there is because of the C&C mode and the way the whole theme is carried out. Some of your proposed changes will make the game quite a bit slower, and I hope you realize this before you do it. While we're on the subject, if you're going to change weapon damages or ranges at all, can you post exact figures in here? I'd like to see a comparison of what the values are now to what you'd like to see done, if you don't mind. If you don't want to do it here, you can hit me up on AIM (priestofb) and we can talk there, too.
Quote: I hardly think what Ren is now is "bullshit" as you so succintly put it. It may not be literal 100% true to C&C gameplay, but for me I prefer it that way because it's faster-paced. Ren is one of the slowest-paced FPSes out there, and the only reason I DO still play it when better games are out there is because of the C&C mode and the way the whole theme is carried out. Some of your proposed changes will make the game quite a bit slower, and I hope you realize this before you do it. Of course it is, because it's based on real time strategy. It's not a fucking deathmatch, why even bring that up? Renegade is less of a FPS and more of a RTS\FPS hybrid, when it should be a RTS gameplay converted to FPS. Once again, if you want a fast paced game, C&C isn't your style. At least not a C&C FPS. If you want Unreal style games, the best solution is to go play Unreal. C&C is about strategy, not about how fast you can win - unless you're playing tournament games. There's little strategy when a lot of the Renegade units are dumbed down so there's only a few good ones that kill everything, real fun that is... People play RA because they enjoy it. Because it's Red Alert in first person. People who aren't playing it usually don't know what RA is, simply because they haven't been able to see it before. There's a lot of communication lapses between this community and 50% of the players on WOL.
spoonyrat Seriously homey, I really didn't expect a dumb question like that from you. it bugs me when you cant body shoot or hs with an arty because its ofcourse
We are FIXING bugs that Westwood intended to fix. You know what else is cheating? That the host of a server gets to see these things already! The host has their pistol already loaded. The host gets to hear when the harvester is damaged. The host doesn't see snipers flicker when they strafe while scoped. etc... If Westwood did not intend to release these features, then why are they available to the host? Furthermore, in our research, we are finding mere typos or syntax errors that were making these things not work. This obviously shows that Westwood intended to have these features available. However, it appears you are in the minority, as less than 1% of all RenGuard users have opted not to accept these bug fixes. Thanks to all of you for your support. mahkra Crimson The bug fixes we have scheduled right now will work on ANY server you join. To me, this seems tantamount to an endorsement of cheating. Some people may not agree that all of the "bugs" actually need to be changed. (And as self-proclaimed "leaders of the community," you should be sympathetic to those of us who wish to play the game un-modded.) You may not think of these bug fixes a cheat. But consider this: if one person starts with a pistol always loaded, and another must reload his pistol before firing, doesn't that give one player an unfair advantage? (Granted, this is not as extreme as, say, a bighead mod, but it is still unfair.) Another example: if only one or two people in a game can see icons to go along with radio messages, doesn't that create an unfair situation? I believe that if you want to fix bugs and make balance changes, you should release everything as a mod to the game, so people can still play a totally un-modified game on certain servers. Don't just try to change the game itself. Doing that only punishes those of us who want to play the game the way Westwood made it. -mahkra
<RenGuard> There are 242 users and 38 servers on the RenGuard Network. <RenGuard> 0 users have core updates turned off.
I'm probably not the only person who thinks the host SHOULD have advantages.... as implied by the term "host advantage". But if all that's limited to is ungodly artillery splash, I'm content. Or would be if my connection didn't suck so bad that I couldn't host anyway. /me returns to the topic
Homey spoonyrat Seriously homey, I really didn't expect a dumb question like that from you. it bugs me when you cant body shoot or hs with an arty because its ofcourse Artillery shells being HORRENDOUSLY powerful against infantry, it's only fair they aren't so accurate as, say, med shells.
A lot of things mentioned in this thread make me ask myself this: Why fix something that is not broken.
Better question might be: Why not polish something that's dusty.
The game's been out more than two years now. What's the point of trying to juggle the unit balance? All that would accomplish would be alienating whatever percentage of the Renegade community likes the game as it is. Renegade doesn't need to lose any more players.
Ironically, most of those players were lost due to horrible balance problems in the game that we want to fix.
Aircraftkiller It's not about small games. A LOT of tactics don't work in small games. So what? Why should the entire game be adjusted so that it works optimally in smaller games? Aircraft need to be like they were in C&C, or flying becomes unenjoyable garbage because you get shot down the moment you leave your base. Doing it the way I said makes the game like C&C, what it was meant to be, and balances out without a problem. I had originally typed out a long reply to this, but I'll summarise it in 1 paragraph. This is the only beef I have with bringing game dynamics from an RTS game to a 3D FPS and it's the same argument I had with renalert. How is it possible in Renegade to recreate the 'C&C' style when you have a limit of 8 vehicles, 20 units per team (to sum it up for fair performance rates), long range snipers, a 3D environment (where it's possible to miss your target), limited ammo for soldiers, the fact that any ground unit can hit an airborne unit, character independance, the fact that you can only control yourself and not the whole team, along with a myriad of other reasons? If you want to recreate the C&C style of something, surely you need to recreate every consequence that came with it to avoid flaw? The limitations and differences between the 2 engines are what will always make them different and not as balanced as we'd all love them to be.
You don't need more than eight vehicles or buildable structures or whatever else. You need the core gameplay, and that is what Renegade lacks. RA seems to do just fine with it the way it is right now. It doesn't matter if you just control yourself. Each unit in C&C was individual and interacted with each other in a balanced way. They do not in Renegade. Your argument falls apart there.
excatly
I think that's where my argument takes flight. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Some elements from C&C are simply not possible in Renegade, just like you said, and without every consequential element that comes from one, such as the "hit and run" tactics of aircraft, the game won't be balanced like you'd want it to be. That could always be seen as a theory, but each to his own.
Aircraftkiller <RenGuard> There are 242 users and 38 servers on the RenGuard Network. <RenGuard> 0 users have core updates turned off. I have the updates turned off. Why? Because I want to know what I would be dowloading before I do and it isn't made clear if I'll be asked to confirm downloads before they take place.
Some aren't, that's why I said CORE GAMEPLAY. I'll make it simpler: Rocket Soldier versus Medium Tank. Medium Tank loses. Why? Rocket Soldier, while cheaper, has anti-armor rockets and will eventually destroy the Medium Tank 80% of the time unless the tank runs it over. The tank's cannon isn't meant for AP warfare. Rocket Soldier versus Orca. Orca loses, because the Orca isn't meant to survive against SAM threats. Rocket Soldier versus Humm-vee. Rocket Soldier loses, because the Humm-vee is an AP weapon and kills the Rocket Soldier before it can do much damage. Rocket Soldier versus Commando (Or Havoc as he's now called.) Rocket Soldier loses because the Commando has a powerful .50 caliber sniper rifle which kills him in one shot. Get the point? I'm not saying anything but having the core gameplay. It'd be a lot more fun, and C&C, to have everything the way it should be. Just without buildable bases and other minor issues that can be balanced out (Such as leaving in snipers but not allowing them to damage vehicles, adding in brush or better designed levels for snipers and infantry to hide instead of being forced into the open to die over and over...) over a short period of time. C&C is already balanced. Renegade isn't. If you don't like how Orcas handle, or Apaches in a C&C balanced situation... Here's a concept, use a tank! They're meant to dominate, not aircraft. This is true even in a real military conflict. Aircraft cannot hold objectives in reality, only foot soldiers and tanks have the ability to hold an objective because they aren't required to refuel by returning to a set point.
kaboomer23 excatly once agin i think ack is right
Aircraftkiller Ironically, most of those players were lost due to horrible balance problems in the game that we want to fix. That's a moot point.
Crimson We are FIXING bugs that Westwood intended to fix. You know what else is cheating? That the host of a server gets to see these things already! The host has their pistol already loaded. The host gets to hear when the harvester is damaged. The host doesn't see snipers flicker when they strafe while scoped. etc... If Westwood did not intend to release these features, then why are they available to the host? Furthermore, in our research, we are finding mere typos or syntax errors that were making these things not work. This obviously shows that Westwood intended to have these features available. However, it appears you are in the minority, as less than 1% of all RenGuard users have opted not to accept these bug fixes. Thanks to all of you for your support. Crimson, First, I'd just like to clarify that I did not intend that to be a personal attack, so please don't take offense. Second, I didn't know the host got to see those things already - I've never hosted a game on my own computer; I've always just played on my dedicated server. (My point is still valid, though. Maybe the host already gets an unfair advantage, but then again, some people already use bighead. Does that mean that we should just give 50% of the players bighead to make things more even?) Third, you said that most people with RenGuard have auto-update turned on. But do you have any statistics about what % of people who play Ren actually have RenGuard? (Maybe 99% of RenGuard users want auto-update. But that might actually only be 50% of all people who play Renegade.) Personally, I think it would be great to fix bugs like making the pistol come loaded & making the radio work the way it was intended. And if someone could release an OFFICIAL patch that would fix the bugs, I'd be supportive. (but NO balance changes - the game doesn't need any) The problem, though, is that BHS is not Westwood, nor is it EA. Any patch released by BHS would be unofficial, and there's no way to get an unofficial patch to everyone who plays Renegade. (It *might* be possible to get the patch to everyone in "the community," but there happen to be LOTS of players who never visit n00bstories and know nothing of "the community." And we shouldn't forget about them.) If you could make the changes in a mod, though, then people with the patch could play together, and people with the unpatched version could still play in a fair environment. (An alternative might be to force the patched version to connect through BHS instead of WOL, which would also prevent patched & unpatched players from being in the same games.) I'm not opposed to fixing obvious bugs. What I AM opposed to, though, is changing the game when there's no way to get the change to EVERYONE. -mahkra
Aircraftkiller C&C is already balanced. Renegade isn't. Actually, Renegade IS balanced. But it's not balanced in the same way as C&C. It's balanced in a way that makes it fun to use each individual unit, rather than in a way that makes it fun to control all the units at once.
Like I've said, changes like this might well improve gameplay in large servers... They'll totally wreck 1v1-2v2-3v3
Quote: It's balanced in a way that makes it fun to use each individual unit Yeah, like how the n00b cannon Havocs and Sakuras kill each basic soldier in one body shot... Or how they destroy aircraft in five shots... Or how they get 20 points for shooting a tank just once with its armor still left... Or how Grenadiers and Flamethrowers are almost totally useless... Or how MRLS\Artillery are paper-thin and barely have any defense against anything they're meant to be attacking... Or how... You get the point. It would be fun to control units that are balanced ala C&C. Rifle soldiers that aren't cannon fodder. Grenadiers that have a useful, damaging weapon. Flamethrowers that slaughter soldiers, but have a short range. Etc... Instead of "Everything is somewhat useful until the Havoc and Sakura n00b cannons come out, then nothing is."
One possible solution could be to try and get in contact with the Dev team for their imput.
I already did, why do you think I've been on this crusade for over eight months?
You pretty much outlined our struggles. The benefit to getting everyone in RenGuard is so that the game can once again be supported instead of left as abandoned by EA. Some people say we want to "take over Renegade"... but our intentions are noble. Not motivated by financial gain (in fact I and others have SPENT money to make this happen)... we just want this game to be supported and try and finish what Westwood couldn't. The solution to this is to run RenGuard on your servers. More and more people every day are downloading it. It takes time, and the servers that don't run RenGuard are just hindering our growth and for those who are "waiting for Renguard to be more popular" ... they aren't helping the situation. I stand firm that if you want to play on my servers, you'd better prove to me that you're not cheating. I don't want my moderators and admins to have to sit there and test you all the time. We want to PLAY.
Shit, Grenadiers already HAVE a useful, damaging weapon. They fuck up vehicles and buildings hardcore, and they are FREE. They can kill a building by themselves, for god's sake. OMFG UNBALANCEDD!!!!!!11 CAL FUKEN WASTWOD I B WANTIN MY MONEYS BAK! And last time I checked, in EVERY C&C GAME the artillery units are lightly armored. They're not meant to be used in a firefight. This can be negated in Ren to a large extent through skillful driving and engineer support. Are you going to take out the engineers' ability to repair vehicles and players too? That wasn't in C&C. :rolleyes: Wait, you probably will, since all your ideas so far turn it from Renegade into ACKgade which is strikingly similar to RenAlert. If these issues are so problematic, and you fixed them all in RenAlert, then why not just play it? I still don't get what your beef with the 1000-cred snipers is. Change their point scale so they don't get as much for shooting armor, as it's a bug, and leave the rest intact. It takes an aircraft 4-5 machine gun shots to kill a Havoc or Sakura, in the same time that the sniper can get ONE shot off. If you're getting that torn up by snipers I honestly feel it's a case of user error. I've also never had a huge problem killing them with regular soldiers, and even if you do die, they get 2 points. WOW GAMEBRAKINN FUKEN HAXX.
I like the concept of Renguard itself. I think you've all done a really great job with that. What I don't like is the fact that now that you've given us a way to play cheat-free again, you're in essence asking us to not play the game we wanted to be playing but a new game that is similar yet different in many basic ways, and in my opinion not as fun. I hope you're going to ask everyone who uses Renguard to come look at this thread and offer their opinions, because otherwise it's going to be quite biased.
Deathgod Shit, Grenadiers already HAVE a useful, damaging weapon. They fuck up vehicles and buildings hardcore, and they are FREE. They can kill a building by themselves, for god's sake. And any soldier kills them without a problem. Because they're meant to be anti-infantry and anti-structure, but they aren't. They're simply fucked up weapons that have little use. Rarely can a Grenadier ever destroy a building by themselves, or any other free unit. MOst of them shouldn't be free to begin with. Quote: And last time I checked, in EVERY C&C GAME the artillery units are lightly armored. They're not meant to be used in a firefight. This can be negated in Ren to a large extent through skillful driving and engineer support. Yeah, and in every C&C game, they didn't get destroyed in five seconds by a sniper all the way across a level. Quote: Are you going to take out the engineers' ability to repair vehicles and players too? That wasn't in C&C. :rolleyes: We should, but since TD didn't have a repair ability for vehicles beyond Repair Facilities, I can't really say "change that." Quote: Wait, you probably will, since all your ideas so far turn it from Renegade into ACKgade which is strikingly similar to RenAlert. If these issues are so problematic, and you fixed them all in RenAlert, then why not just play it? No, it's strikingly similar to C&C. Perhaps you enjoy Homogade, that's your perogative. It isn't mine or the opinion of many others. I want to play C&C1 in first person, I don't want a bastardized version of it. How many times do I have to tell you that? Quote: I still don't get what your beef with the 1000-cred snipers is. Change their point scale so they don't get as much for shooting armor, as it's a bug, and leave the rest intact. It takes an aircraft 4-5 machine gun shots to kill a Havoc or Sakura, in the same time that the sniper can get ONE shot off. If you're getting that torn up by snipers I honestly feel it's a case of user error. I've also never had a huge problem killing them with regular soldiers, and even if you do die, they get 2 points. WOW GAMEBRAKINN FUKEN HAXX. Man, you must not be playing the same game I am, because it only takes five shots from a n00b cannon to kill an Orca. No accuracy penalty. No round times. No nothing except "point, click, Orca is dead." How fucking balanced is that? ANYTHING CAN BE COUNTERED IF YOU CAN GET NEAR IT.. BIG FUCKING WHOOP! I swear you'd be defending a unit if it were in Renegade for two years, and it destroyed everything in one button press that took ten seconds to charge... Yeah, you can stop that from happening, but it isn't very fucking realistic to imagine it happening. n00b cannons aren't that overbalanced, but they're pretty damn close with the way they fuck up the game. Why attack with tanks, they just shoot them to get points and negate the damage you do to buildings... Why attack with soldiers? They just kill you in a few seconds from across the level. Yeah, you don't have a problem... I'm sure you won't after being killed over 10 times trying to kill a Havoc with a rifle soldier.
Deathgod now that you've given us a way to play cheat-free again, you're in essence asking us to not play the game we wanted to be playing but a new game that is similar yet different in many basic ways, and in my opinion not as fun. Bear in mind the reason I created this forum was so everyone can talk and discuss not only bugfixes but possible enhancments. This is just the discussion stage, and while of course Aircraftkiller is very passionate about the way he thinks things should be, nothing has been decided, and this isn't a "this is how things are going to be" discussion. Personally I think that if Blackhand Studios does any substantial modifications to Renegade besides basic bugfixes, that we should create an alternate game, and call it something like RenegadeX or something. So that people can still play the origional game with its wacky environment that they like, and those who want to play the "new and improved" Renegade can click a different icon and play on RenegadeX servers.
If/when we do implement new preset changes, they wont be global. They will only be on new Blackhand Studios maps (which might be modified versnios of existing maps, westwood, ACK or otherwise or might be totally new)
About the host It doesn't matter if they flicker or not its still hard to hit, if it wasn't the host would never miss, yet they do. the pistol, you should have it loaded anyways
See, ACK never mentioned that these will be on specific maps. He was making it sound like anyone who owned Renguard and opted for patches was going to wake up one day with a different game. I think the map plan is by far a better idea, though. That will mean old maps and the new, 'fixed' maps could be in rotation at the same time, which would be pretty cool. Thanks for the clarification, Blazer and jonwil. ACK, man, honestly I think you take everything I say as a personal attack. I'm not intending that. If I was I'd come in here and just say "ACK IS AN ASSRAMMING HOMOFAG MASCOT" or something. I'm not here to try to insult you, I appreciate your work ethic in getting these bugs and shit taken care of. I just feel that a lot of you are overdramatizing the fucking Ramjet. It's one gun. I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that Sydney does 5 more damage at the MCT than Raveshaw does, or that GDI soldiers do 40% more damage than Nod ones do, which is really broken early game. If the gun itself is the problem, then fix the bugs which give it extra points against heavy armor and be done with it. I think they should be able to kill free soldiers in one shot; if Rav and Sydney can, why shouldn't they? Are Rav and Sydney broke too? What about Mobius/Mendoza? They eat everything just like Rav/Sydney do. And I'm sorry, not only have I never been horribly destroyed by a Havoc/Sakura when all I get is a free solider, but I rarely get taken down by Ramjet fire when I'm in an Orca because I put 5 slugs into that person's face right after I see the first shot and they die before they get enough shots off to kill me. If you fly into an area where you KNOW there are a lot of snipers with an aircraft, that's not a broken game, that's poor strategy. Would you be complaining if it was 5 Raveshaws who dropped you in one shot?
Blazer Deathgod now that you've given us a way to play cheat-free again, you're in essence asking us to not play the game we wanted to be playing but a new game that is similar yet different in many basic ways, and in my opinion not as fun. Bear in mind the reason I created this forum was so everyone can talk and discuss not only bugfixes but possible enhancments. This is just the discussion stage, and while of course Aircraftkiller is very passionate about the way he thinks things should be, nothing has been decided, and this isn't a "this is how things are going to be" discussion. Personally I think that if Blackhand Studios does any substantial modifications to Renegade besides basic bugfixes, that we should create an alternate game, and call it something like RenegadeX or something. So that people can still play the origional game with its wacky environment that they like, and those who want to play the "new and improved" Renegade can click a different icon and play on RenegadeX servers. I agree, all these balance changes should be a modification or something. I doubt half of the people who play now want it changes.
jonwil If/when we do implement new preset changes, they wont be global. They will only be on new Blackhand Stufios maps (which might be modified versnios of existing maps, westwood, ACK or otherwise or might be totally new) Is it possible to have these changes done Server Side only? Like what they did with Dragonade (DragonServ) on Canyon for example they have Turrets and stuff like that. Its not required for the connecting people to download a new version of the map. They can join it with the original Canyon map and the server tells their client that on some spot of the map there is a turret or something. The patches that BHS applies to maps and/or game-bugs/enhancements , your saying they are only applied for those who had answered with Yes during the installation of RenGuard. Will the people who said No still be able to play on the same server as the people who answered it with Yes? [zunnie]
I think GDI soliders are supposed to do more damage than Nod soldiers...the ongoing theme of Renegade/C&C is that GDI has strong armor/weapons (Mammoth/med tank, PIC, etc), and Nod has advanced tech (stealth tanks, stealth black hand). So a GDI soldier versus Nod soldier, yeah the GDI soldier will win, but at the same time an SBH slips quietly by on his way to C4 your MCT
Zunnie there are some bugfixes such as emoticons fix that require actually patching game(2).exe...these are the sort of updates that will be sent out to RG users who opt for them. Anything that can be implemented server side or in a map, we will release that way as we prefer to give people the most options.
Blazer I think GDI soliders are supposed to do more damage than Nod soldiers...the ongoing theme of Renegade/C&C is that GDI has strong armor/weapons (Mammoth/med tank, PIC, etc), and Nod has advanced tech (stealth tanks, stealth black hand). So a GDI soldier versus Nod soldier, yeah the GDI soldier will win, but at the same time an SBH slips quietly by on his way to C4 your MCT Could be. It just irks me early game to know that if I am on Nod and I go to shoot the harvy that the opposing team gets 40% more money for doing it than I do.
Nod shooters have way bigger heads then gdi
I don't see the need to go so far. Sure, just upgrade the mammoth a little to make it useful, decrease sniper damage to Helicopters and Artilleries/MRLSs. Fix a few bugs, and major balance issues, then leave it at that. Of course, you can make a more extreme "True C&C" map pack if you want, but I for one would like to see just smaller changes on their own, as I feel these would improve the gameplay more for me. Remember that Ack is not trying to force these down your throats. I'm sure there are others who want to play a "True C&C" Renegade mod, and this would be an option available to them.
Deathgod Wait, you probably will, since all your ideas so far turn it from Renegade into ACKgade which is strikingly similar to RenAlert. If these issues are so problematic, and you fixed them all in RenAlert, then why not just play it? He figured it out what's going on and what RenAlert is based on.
Aircraftkiller Get the point? I'm not saying anything but having the core gameplay. I take the point. Although I think what you're trying to say is in one way or another what I was too. "Change what can be changed, keep the focus on gameplay, keep it fun while making it as accurate as possible to C&C." ~g
Ok, its a 1v1, walls_flying im gdi, enemy buys a light tank, i come over in my orca and shoot him down 50% or w/e it was, i go back to reload, he repairs way quicker with technition and gets closer to my base, i go him him down from full health again to half health, and he hops out repairs again while im refilling, nice cycle there light tank wins . I know you guys say that renegade is meant for 7v7+ but reloading of orca/apache is just lame, Tanks dont have to.
ACKgade .... rofl , you're to newb to realise how good the orca is? if you could aim too it owns ramjet.
Kill the healer if he jumps out of the Light tank, not that hard, then steal his light and destroy your orca, bam! Fun fun...doh!!! >.<
Like I keep saying.... downgrading orca/apache or changing its armour system will wreck small games... But since ACK doesn't like small games, obviously that's irrelevant :rolleyes: . Let's ignore the fact that a massive part of the gaming community PREFERS small games, because they're not ACK and as such, don't matter
Yeah, that's why the majority of players are found on the larger 16-128 player servers. Quote: ACKgade .... rofl , you're to newb to realise how good the orca is? if you could aim too it owns ramjet. I'm a newbie? I hate to break it to you but I've been playing this game since 3 December of 2001, and beta tested the game AND the flying units before people like you had a chance to play with them. They don't easily own any "sniper" units. If you can keep a bead on a "sniper," sure, but that's pretty damn hard when they're in scope mode and flicker around making it imposible to get a good shot on them. Try and land on them and they move out of the way, by which time their other n00b cannon friend has already shot you down, and you're dead. It's even worse if you just leave your base, they camp on the bridge or at their own base, and flying out gets you destroyed in a few seconds. Pretty fucking lame to have units that are almost worthless. Why even bother to purchase an aircraft if their only use is to give massive points to the enemy team and not even be able to do much?
EnGiMaN56 ACKgade .... rofl , you're to newb to realise how good the orca is? if you could aim too it owns ramjet. FYI, he tends to own in an aircraft. Except when I'm being cheap and pecking him off with my Ramjet from the safety of my base ( ). In that case he swears at me over teamspeak
If people camp on the bridge, you fly up from under it, using it as cover to pounce on them. If they flicker, shoot in the middle of the flicker and they die because they walk through that spot.
If they're camping on the bridge, leaving your base means you get shot down ANYWAY... And going under it by the side entrance means that you've probably already taken three hits, and you're going to be even easier to destroy than you normally are. The flicker doesn't matter, most times it's so horrid that you can't tell where the center of it is.